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08-20-2010, 10:56 AM   #196
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
When we say that these lenses can cover FF (and I'm also thinking about Pentax DA lenses here), does that take into account the amount of image circle needed to cover sensor movement for in-camera shake reduction?
The sensor doesn't move far. Like Pentax, Sony uses sensor shift stabilization, so I would assume "yes" to that question. Otherwise it's a design flaw from the outset.

08-20-2010, 11:45 AM   #197
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I thought this thread had died out after going in another tangent, but it's got a flicker of life yet.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
No. FF can be as small as the Sony NEX which has a FF image circle and mount by design (the E-Mount is FF).

Clearly Sony anticipates FF in EVIL in the same size package as the current NEX.

All that matters is the price.
Sigh. Again - having a lens mount big enough to fit a FF lens does not mean that the body is big enough to fit the sensor and related electronics.

Note that some NEX bodies actually have the lens mount sticking out past the rest of the body!

It is foolish to expect Sony to release a FF NEX. The NEX lenses are designed for an APS sensor. Sony would have to throw away all their existing NEX lenses and design and release brand-new E-mount lenses which can cover a FF image circle. They'd be in the same boat as most DSLR manufacturers are where they have to support both APS and FF lenses.

And, again, imagine mounting a 70-200mm F2.8 on an NEX body. Ridiculous!

One final note on the lens mount thing. If Wikipedia's lens mount info is accurate, the Four Thirds DSLRs actually have the same size lens mount as Nikon's FF DSLRs! Will you also claim that Olympus was always planning a full-frame 4/3rds camera, because their lens mount (~44mm) was plenty big enough to fit a FF lens? The micro 4/3rds could probably cover a FF sensor also; some 35mm rangefingers have similar size lens mounts.

In other words - please stop beating this dead, meaningless horse.

Last edited by Groucho; 08-20-2010 at 11:50 AM. Reason: correction
08-20-2010, 11:51 AM   #198
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If Pentax could come out with a $10,000 645D they sure as hell could come out with a FF DSLR to work with the 24 million FF K mount lenses out there for a fraction of the price IMHO.

08-20-2010, 12:01 PM   #199
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
No. FF can be as small as the Sony NEX which has a FF image circle and mount by design (the E-Mount is FF).

Clearly Sony anticipates FF in EVIL in the same size package as the current NEX.

All that matters is the price.
OK, we get to disagree again! It's a good day.

I would amend that to say that Sony clearly anticipates FF in cameras using the new E mount - a fine way to spread development costs. I will assume that Sony understands that a new mount is a very long-term commitment - at least to its purchasers.

The form factor may be something else entirely, smaller or larger than the current NEX-5, perhaps of an entirely different shape. That's my current idee fixe. Please see Sony NEX-VG10. May even revert to a new-technology OVF. Whatever that is when it's at home. (I expect EVF, though - easier to create radical designs if you don't have that pesky optical path to deal with more than once.)

Sum: The FF E mount is what we're sure of. Sony's plans may be radical indeed, particularly given the size/weight of FF lenses.

There is more but I really must do some network planning today. I have a meeting with my manager soon to discuss tangible progress. I should have some.

08-20-2010, 12:07 PM   #200
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QuoteOriginally posted by Groucho Quote
Will you also claim that Olympus was always planning a full-frame 4/3rds camera
may be at the planning stage they decided not to discard the possibility... are you close friends w/ Olympus desicion makers of that time to say that this was not on their mind ?
08-20-2010, 12:11 PM   #201
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
When we say that these lenses can cover FF (and I'm also thinking about Pentax DA lenses here), does that take into account the amount of image circle needed to cover sensor movement for in-camera shake reduction?
QuoteOriginally posted by Groucho Quote
I thought this thread had died out after going in another tangent, but it's got a flicker of life yet.


QuoteQuote:
Sigh. Again - having a lens mount big enough to fit a FF lens does not mean that the body is big enough to fit the sensor and related electronics.
Why not? If Moore's Law holds some truth, the image processing capabilities of the non-sensor electronics will shrink relative to their capabilities.

You're trying to put up a physical design barreir that has been broken many times before. The sensor's surface area can stay constant while there can be a dimunition of other electronics.

Note that some NEX bodies actually have the lens mount sticking out past the rest of the body!
Sony designed it that way. Ask them.

QuoteQuote:
It is foolish to expect Sony to release a FF NEX. The NEX lenses are designed for an APS sensor. Sony would have to throw away all their existing NEX lenses and design and release brand-new E-mount lenses which can cover a FF image circle. They'd be in the same boat as most DSLR manufacturers are where they have to support both APS and FF lenses.
So you are saying Sony is foolish for designing it to have both an FF E-Mount and have the lens outsize the body, but that this is all really just for APS-C?

I agree, Sony is foolish, for losing money amongst other things, but they are clearly anticipating E-Mount being FF. They went so far as to release the mount solely on an NEX body. Is Alpha gone? We don't know. but anything new has FF built in even though for proportionate sizing and the "EVIL is small" mantra, this seems counterintuitive.

As with past lens mount abandonments, I predict that APS-C mount lenses will eventually be dropped. Both lens and sensors will be FF. This consolidation of design, production, support, marketing, and distribution will save the industry enormous $$$. Right now, sensor costs occupy that space. As FF costs are amortized, that capital will start to flow the other way making it cheaper to include FF through the line.

QuoteQuote:
And, again, imagine mounting a 70-200mm F2.8 on an NEX body. Ridiculous!
Did you just see Sony's newest NEX lens announcement?

Sony E 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 OSS ( NEX ) - Review / Lens Test Report

Tell me again what's ridiculous?

QuoteQuote:
One final note on the lens mount thing. If Wikipedia's lens mount info is accurate, the Four Thirds DSLRs actually have the same size lens mount as Nikon's FF DSLRs! Will you also claim that Olympus was always planning a full-frame 4/3rds camera, because their lens mount (~44mm) was plenty big enough to fit a FF lens? The micro 4/3rds could probably cover a FF sensor also; some 35mm rangefingers have similar size lens mounts.

In other words - please stop beating this dead, meaningless horse.
Yes. All manufacturers likely designed the lens mounts to eventually hold larger sensors once sensor prices dropped due to economy of scale opportunities. This would force consumers to re-purchase (reinvest in economic terms) in the technology to continue the revenue cycle.

It's been done before, they'll do it again.
08-20-2010, 02:41 PM   #202
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APS-C is not going anywhere. It does not matter how fast technology evolves or how cheap FF sensors become. You will ALWAYS need bigger more expensive glass to make the most of larger sensors. Glass is and always has been what actually separate the customers into different groups. Give any competent professional any modern body and good glass and they will be fine for most types of photography.

The FF advantages are wasted on 80% of the users in the market. The new FF glass that is coming out is pretty expensive compared to the older film era glass, and it needs to be to address CA, LCA, & corner softness. The new Nikon 85mm is long over due and running $1,600 estimated. The new Sigma 70-200 is 2x the price of the HSM II. Any FF advantage is lost with cheap, slow consumer grade glass.

People seem to think Pentax can just dust off the old FA designs and have a successful FF lens line up. No manufacturer has been able to do that with the exception of a couple of lenses.

I would love to see Pentax roll out a FF, but they are a long way away form being in a position to do that. Not because of issues with sensor supply or any technical problems, but because they do not have the money to invest in designing all new glass and brining it to market.
08-20-2010, 03:56 PM   #203
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Any FF advantage is lost with cheap, slow consumer grade glass.
Nikon 85/1.8 und Canon 85/1.8 do not think so

you can look @ canon cheap FF lenses from old time tested @ photozone

35/2 @ http://www.photozone.de/canon_eos_ff/428-canon_35_2_5d

50/1.8 @ http://www.photozone.de/canon_eos_ff/415-canon_50_18_ff

85/1.8 @ http://www.photozone.de/canon_eos_ff/419-canon_85_18_5d

100/2.8 @ http://www.photozone.de/canon_eos_ff/489-canon_100_28_5d

no fancy L's, released 10-20 years ago, they do quite OK and sometime very good on FF


Last edited by deejjjaaaa; 08-20-2010 at 04:02 PM.
08-20-2010, 03:58 PM   #204
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
People seem to think Pentax can just dust off the old FA designs and have a successful FF lens line up. No manufacturer has been able to do that with the exception of a couple of lenses.

I would love to see Pentax roll out a FF, but they are a long way away form being in a position to do that. Not because of issues with sensor supply or any technical problems, but because they do not have the money to invest in designing all new glass and brining it to market.
I agree with you. I think the lenses tell us what's to come. I can't see Pentax rolling out a top of the line FF camera and saying, "Oh yeah...we've only got a few current lenses that will work with it." I know people say that some of the newer DA lenses will work with FF, but the part that concerns me is that Pentax doesn't say that. And, if the lenses WILL work for FF digital, I can't think of a good reason why Pentax wouldn't label them as DFA lenses. If the lenses meet Pentax's standards for FF, why not label them as such and pick up a few extra sales from the film crowd?
08-20-2010, 04:00 PM   #205
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
APS-C is not going anywhere. It does not matter how fast technology evolves or how cheap FF sensors become. You will ALWAYS need bigger more expensive glass to make the most of larger sensors. Glass is and always has been what actually separate the customers into different groups. Give any competent professional any modern body and good glass and they will be fine for most types of photography.

The FF advantages are wasted on 80% of the users in the market. The new FF glass that is coming out is pretty expensive compared to the older film era glass, and it needs to be to address CA, LCA, & corner softness. The new Nikon 85mm is long over due and running $1,600 estimated. The new Sigma 70-200 is 2x the price of the HSM II. Any FF advantage is lost with cheap, slow consumer grade glass.

People seem to think Pentax can just dust off the old FA designs and have a successful FF lens line up. No manufacturer has been able to do that with the exception of a couple of lenses.

I would love to see Pentax roll out a FF, but they are a long way away form being in a position to do that. Not because of issues with sensor supply or any technical problems, but because they do not have the money to invest in designing all new glass and brining it to market.
Have you seen the size of K, M, A, F, and FA lenses? That's how big they have to be. The newer glass is more expensive because they'e fractured the market. Those same designs will come down in price (or, likely, the market will inflate to meet them as happened to lenses in the 1970's).

This is not up to Pentax. It's up to the price points the current FF cameras come in at. If Canikon comes within $500 of the Pentax APS-C flagship, Pentax will lose sales and the k-mount will die unless it, too, moves to FF to keep its market share. You are correct about Pentax needing the $$ to rework their lens array. That's their challenge. But they *must* do it or the k-mount is dead.

This is not an if, but when scenario. Within 4 years you will sub $1,500 FF DSLR's and/or mirrorless offerings. Makes one think twice about investing in APS-C DALtd's now, right?

And it doesn't matter if the features are wasted. When has that stopped a market. 90% of 4WD vehicles sold in the US never go off-road!
08-20-2010, 04:11 PM   #206
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Aristophanes, I still think your FF cameras are in a race. Can they make it to market before the print market dies and takes with it much of the professional need for FF? When there are no more magazines or newspapers in which to run still photos, who will need FF?
08-20-2010, 04:14 PM   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
Aristophanes, I still think your FF cameras are in a race. Can they make it to market before the print market dies and takes with it much of the professional need for FF? When there are no more magazines or newspapers in which to run still photos, who will need FF?
do you really think that all those people who buy entry level FF nikons and canons print at all or even if print then print more than 1 out of 10 keepers ?
08-20-2010, 04:33 PM   #208
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
do you really think that all those people who buy entry level FF nikons and canons print at all or even if print then print more than 1 out of 10 keepers ?
I'm talking about print media....newspapers, magazines. The places where still pictures still rule. Once those are gone, video will replace them and the need for high-quality stills will only be an enthusiast market.
08-20-2010, 05:07 PM   #209
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A couple of points:

1) The Sony E mount will also be used in video cameras. That's also maybe where a FF sensor could be used. Sony didn't target this new mount exclusively for small still cameras. BTW That's also where Nikon and Pentax are at a disadvantage compared to Sony/Samsung/Panasonic: they don't have any experience in the pro video market, they will not build a micromount video camera and their ecosystem will feel less complete as a result.

2) FF lenses are not necessarily bigger to get the same performance as APS-C. An f/4 lens on a FF camera will perform better than a f/2.8 lens on an APS-C camera! Because of the 1.3 stop advantage over APS-C. 1.3 stop better noise performance, 1.3 stop less DOF means that an f/4 lens is like a f/2.4 lens on APS-C... Not to mention it's easier to design a good f/4 lens than a f/2.8 one.

3) I'm not sure APS-C will ever disappear. It may survive for a long time in mirrorless cameras.
08-20-2010, 06:11 PM   #210
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
I agree with you. I think the lenses tell us what's to come. I can't see Pentax rolling out a top of the line FF camera and saying, "Oh yeah...we've only got a few current lenses that will work with it." I know people say that some of the newer DA lenses will work with FF, but the part that concerns me is that Pentax doesn't say that. And, if the lenses WILL work for FF digital, I can't think of a good reason why Pentax wouldn't label them as DFA lenses. If the lenses meet Pentax's standards for FF, why not label them as such and pick up a few extra sales from the film crowd?
Given they don't have a sensor out at present larger than APS-C, it would be awkward for them to say any given lens would cover a larger sensor. That said, all the D FA lenses do cover film. However, Pentax doesn't acknowledge the existence of film shooters or they would still build a film body. The move to eliminate the aperture has opened up a can of
CanofWorms
for use of new DA lenses and the 100mm WR on a lot of vintage film bodies including the mighty LX, MX and K2. What I am getting at here is don't expect Pentax to officially address this until if and when they do actually unveil a ff body.
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