Originally posted by Groucho One thing being overlooked here (well, by the FF crowd): the "good enough" factor. PnS cameras are "good enough" for the vast majority of people. APS-sensor DSLRs are "good enough" for even more. Once you get into FF, you are talking advantages that few people even know exist (try explaining DoF or DR to a casual Best Buy customer)... and FF is "good enough" for even more; the remainders going with MF or maybe film.
Superior technology does not automatically win, especially when it carries negatives like size, weight, cost, and the size/weight of the lenses (or the loss of much range with identical lenses.) The sensor is superior, but is the entire package superior? Very debatable.
Anyway - the "good enough". Remember Beta vs VHS? Beta had a clearly better picture - but VHS was longer, and "good enough." About about laserdiscs vs VCRs? Laserdiscs were far superior - but that technology never got cheap enough to mount a serious challenge. MiniDV camcorder sales were cut into by hard drive/DVD camcorders which had worse picture quality. Most people are not replacing their DVDs with Blurays despite Blurays having far better picture quality - DVDs are "good enough." People happily disconnect their landline phones in exchange for cell phones which have much worse call quality. Many people are enjoying streaming video from Netflix, Hulu, etc - even with worse image quality. Here's my favorite example of this: remember SACD and DVD-Audio formats? Both offering better sound quality over CDs, plus surround sound. Both flopped. Why? CDs are "good enough". In fact, most people have dropped even getting CDs so that they can get MP3s or AACs with inferior sound quality.
The point of all this, to repeat - the "quality" - whether it be sound quality, image quality (still photos or video), whatever - is only one part of the equation.
This is one of the better descriptions of consumer trends descriptions that I've come across. Well written.
I think many of the Canon rebel users; are lusting more for the performance oriented Eos 7D with some serious tele glass, than the 5D mark II. Should Canon only offer FF, than they couldn't compare pricewise to the Nikon entry segment DSLR.
Originally posted by Groucho people want small size and convenience.
Yes, I think this is one of the reasons that so many still stick with P&S. Bringing in the weight issue, FF cannot win against APS-C crop. And the digital SLR standard frame size, easily matches what people were used to with film SLR cams.
As *Isteve wrote, after buying the D700; he loves the quality, but hates lugging the camera around.
I don't see much IQ improvement for me with FF, since often times I wouldn't be bringing such a big camera around with me.
To my knowledge, there is no Sony NEX with FF sensor. Often when getting a FF cam, people wanna have high quality glass for specific purposes too. The FF lens offerings from Canikon are lovely, but also filled with a lot of heavy glass too.
Originally posted by Eigengrau Bigger and heavier, but how much so? Honestly, the only place that I really see size MUST increase is in the viewfinder - everywhere else can benefit from the constant miniaturization of modern electronics. .
Nope, sensor size cannot be made any smaller. And cutting them in the bigger pieces is much more expensive, since it results in accumulated malproducts. They have to discard way more FF sensors, than when making crop ones.
Have you opened a DSLR ? the space is pretty much taken up. They have to be ingenuitive.
Originally posted by Eigengrau And, you are committing the same error that you accuse everybody else of: assuming that smaller and lighter is what everybody wants. I personally wouldn't want an SLR any smaller than the K-7, as it is right on the edge of usability right now.
What you're stating, goes against making an NEX FF.
Originally posted by Eigengrau At any rate, though, the argument really doesn't involve what people do or don't want, as that changes based on what is available and what is marketed. The argument is based almost purely on what technology developments will do to the market, and when everybody starts selling $1000 FF cameras, it is going to be tough to sell $1000 APS-C cameras. APS-C will become the budget SLR, and significant profit margins will only be found on FF.
Sony is bleeding in FF land, no amount of commercials will make the A900 a lighter camera.
High up decisions from Sony, have often simply seen areas being cut off, which weren't making money. Time is running out for Sony FF. The cheap FF way didn't work.
Originally posted by Eigengrau As well, if you don't think that consumers care about DOF control, just look at how Sony is marketing their new NEX-based video camera. This is precisely the advantage that Sony is using to market their new system. You claim that consumers don't care about sensor size, but Sony is showing us different right now.
People already know, subconsciously, that a cheap disposable cam and their fixed-focus cell phone camera give them lots of detail. They also know, without realizing it, that pro pictures look different, and they've already come to associate a razor-thin DOF with high end photography and videography thanks to Hollywood and others. If you don't think a larger sensor can be marketed effectively to the masses, then obviously you underestimate the enormous (and sometimes scary) power that advertising can wield.
Exactly, Sony are showing that you can get plenty of DoF control with APS-C crop sensor.
Slap on a macro lens to a standard DSLR frame size, and you have thin DoF indeed. As also my 50/1.2 lens on my K10.
FF will die out, as APS-C improves. And as the old Film Frame user base are retiring from photography purchases. Young users, do not see FF as any particular universal right format.
(Personally, I would like eventually to have a FF Pentax DSLR)
Originally posted by northcoastgreg Many consumers who have invested in APS-C lenses will demand APS-C cameras for many years to come. What company would dare turn their backs on such a large consumer base? If I had invested in several expensive DX lenses and Nikon suddenly announced it was abandoning APS-C, what incentive would I have for remaining with Nikon?
Very true, volume is in the entry level. They sell much more than high-end. Canon make their big money in the entry-level market.
Some enthusiasts will buy FF, general consumers don't care as much as us on forums.
At the beginning of DSLRs; Pro's were shooting award winning stuff with standard crop digital SLR format. And it has gotten even better afterwards.