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09-24-2010, 10:24 AM   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
In many ways, yes, but lenses for a small-sensor system can never achieve the rendering and bokeh with thin DoF of lenses for a larger system, so there will always be the need for both. I have to get *really* close to get some nice bokeh from my iPhone 4



But can it make phone calls?


(j/k I could not resist)

09-24-2010, 11:07 AM   #167
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QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
(That's an iphone pic? Wow.)
Yes, the iPhone 4 has a surprisingly usable camera (I just upgraded from the 3G, which had a poor camera, and mine even had a severely decentered lens ).
QuoteQuote:
So is there a sweet spot for sensor size that allows for "rendering and bokeh" and "simpler and better wide angles"? Is it the accidental standard .. APS-C?
That's an interesting question, but if APS-C survives in the longer run, I personally think it will be side-by-side with smaller and larger formats.
09-24-2010, 04:39 PM   #168
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The most compelling aspect of the Fuji is the VF which has by far garnered the most attention.

Combine the VF with a fixed lens optimized for the APS-C sensor and you have a combo that says form follows function. Instead of the M43 trying to shrink the form and then design everything around it, Fuji looked at the picture IQ and opted for a larger sensor and no-compromise glass, combined with a VF experience both familiar and highly functional (on paper at least). Everything else follows.

Someone has been following the DP Review forums
If the no-compromise glass was aimed at portrait applications then it would have been more unique. Sigma DP1, 2 and LX2,3,5 already addressed wide angle without VF.
09-25-2010, 12:31 AM   #169
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QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
It seems that things are beginning to change rapidly in this market. At last. I'm very glad.

BTW, Falk I'd posted some questions on your thoughts on the Fuji earlier in this thread... Did you have a chance to play with it to evaluate its construction and finish?
Hi, I didn't see your question.
I only touched it and looked through the viewfinder, both optical and the demo EVF. But my first impression was very positive. It had a solid touch and finish and a bright VF.

09-25-2010, 12:44 AM   #170
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Hi, I didn't see your question.
I only touched it and looked through the viewfinder, both optical and the demo EVF. But my first impression was very positive. It had a solid touch and finish and a bright VF.
Good, great news! I went into the first floor camera showroom on the ground floor of the Fuji headquarters (I actually happened to be passing!) and asked about their new rangefinder. At first the sales/demo woman didn't know what I meant. But when I explained that there was a new camera at Photokina she realized what I meant. Then I told her in my broken Japanese that that rangefinder was extremely popular with the 'foreign camera nerds/fans' and she said something unusual. Rather than a self-deprecating "oh, no, it isn't" or "thank you very much", she said, "I know!" I repeated that it's a very popular and good design and reverted to style with the denials and thanks. I think Fuji's realized that they've hit a nerve.
10-03-2010, 08:30 AM   #171
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In my opinion this is good news; Pentax won't be using the Samsung NX lens mount:
www.mirrorlessrumors.com/hoya-says-they-will-not-use-the-nx-mount-for-their-mirrorless-system/

While I'd love to see Pentax partner up with someone to compete against m4/3's I think Samsung screwed up on their lens mount choice. They are the only mirrrorless system that can't be adapted to use Leica M glass.
10-03-2010, 10:06 AM   #172
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
In my opinion this is good news; Pentax won't be using the Samsung NX lens mount:
www.mirrorlessrumors.com/hoya-says-they-will-not-use-the-nx-mount-for-their-mirrorless-system/

While I'd love to see Pentax partner up with someone to compete against m4/3's I think Samsung screwed up on their lens mount choice. They are the only mirrrorless system that can't be adapted to use Leica M glass.
That site looks like a lot of 'Relative Humidity' BS to me. It is no secrete that Pentax hasn't had anything going on with Samsung for a while. Plus, why the hell would they use the NX mount anyway. it would be just as easy for them to use the k-mount and build a system around the DA ltd lenses and develop a specific compact zoom for such a system if they were to go that route. Also, in regards to Nikon, is it a dSLR or a mirrorless system? They keep saying mirrorless dSLR in places. Hysterical Does this mean Nikon has developed a way to keep an optical view finder on a mirrorless camera? If they do, that would be a game changer.
10-03-2010, 02:10 PM   #173
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
it would be just as easy for them to use the k-mount and build a system around the DA ltd lenses and develop a specific compact zoom for such a system if they were to go that route.
I don't see how they could use the k-mount. Well, they could use it, but then the cameras would be no smaller than DSLR's, which would make it pointless. I'm all for backwards compatibility, but I'd prefer the make a new mount with a shorter registration distance. These new cameras are all about being designed for digital from the ground up, and not retrofitted film cameras, I think they need to start with a clean slate. An adapter can always be used for k-mount glass just like all the other mirrorless cameras.

10-03-2010, 03:21 PM   #174
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
I think they need to start with a clean slate. An adapter can always be used for k-mount glass just like all the other mirrorless cameras.
I agree. Things are changing quickly now, at last. It's time to start focusing on the digital future. "Small, jewel-like lenses" should lead the charge. Anyone who'se ever seen a NEX body with a rangefinder lens would get that immediately.

(To my mind starting again for the digital era also includes making a credible point & shoot along the lines of the G12. The G12 is good but certainly there's room for improvement.)
10-03-2010, 05:05 PM   #175
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
I don't see how they could use the k-mount. Well, they could use it, but then the cameras would be no smaller than DSLR's, which would make it pointless. I'm all for backwards compatibility, but I'd prefer the make a new mount with a shorter registration distance. These new cameras are all about being designed for digital from the ground up, and not retrofitted film cameras, I think they need to start with a clean slate. An adapter can always be used for k-mount glass just like all the other mirrorless cameras.
How small do you think the Samsung NX mount is? All dSLR cameras on the market at present are designed from the ground up as digital. The optical end of things still deals with physics of light.
10-03-2010, 06:21 PM   #176
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
How small do you think the Samsung NX mount is? All dSLR cameras on the market at present are designed from the ground up as digital. The optical end of things still deals with physics of light.
What do you mean how small do I think it is? As in diameter or as in registration distance from the sensor? The registration distance is what concerns me...which is where Samsung screwed up IMO. They made theirs too deep to use Rangefinder glass with an adapter.

And no, present DSLR's aren't designed for digital from the ground up. You can possibly make a case that 4/3's is, but even that system stil uses a lot of film-era tech. I'm not saying anything is wrong with that mind you, but we're moving into a world were flappy mirrors, mechanical shutters, screw drive AF motors, and optical view finders are no longer needed. So I don't see why Pentax should stick to a lens mount that leaves clearance for a lot of parts that will no longer be in cameras 5 years from now.

I'm no huge fan of the Sony NEX3/5, but I can see the appeal for such a slim camera when matched with a pancake prime. If Pentax were to use the K-Mount a design like that simply isn't possible.
10-03-2010, 06:49 PM   #177
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
What do you mean how small do I think it is? As in diameter or as in registration distance from the sensor? The registration distance is what concerns me...which is where Samsung screwed up IMO. They made theirs too deep to use Rangefinder glass with an adapter.

And no, present DSLR's aren't designed for digital from the ground up. You can possibly make a case that 4/3's is, but even that system stil uses a lot of film-era tech. I'm not saying anything is wrong with that mind you, but we're moving into a world were flappy mirrors, mechanical shutters, screw drive AF motors, and optical view finders are no longer needed. So I don't see why Pentax should stick to a lens mount that leaves clearance for a lot of parts that will no longer be in cameras 5 years from now.

I'm no huge fan of the Sony NEX3/5, but I can see the appeal for such a slim camera when matched with a pancake prime. If Pentax were to use the K-Mount a design like that simply isn't possible.
I was talking about the mount itself. No one mentioned registration distance. Given that we were talking about aps-c sized stuff, I was talking about the mount in comparison to the NX mount.

Well if the mirrorless stuff was designed from the ground up, they need to scrap that junk and start over if it is supposed to be better dSLRs. It is all in the pursuit of interchangeable lens P & S. Then hang some guys retrofitting adapters because some registry distances allow an adapter for certain vintage glass such as the Canon L glass. The 4/3 and micro 4/3 has been organized chaos. What these aps-c systems have done is added to the chaos to a certain degree.

Furthermore, the Pentax registration distance doesn't have jack-shit to do with screw drive motors etc etc etc. Pentax has used that registration distance all the way back to 1952. I suggest you actually get one of those Asahiflex and either an AP or a K body and look at how small they are in your hand. As far as an optical viewfinder goes, there's no replacement for seeing what you are photographing ttl in certain types of photography. You guys piss and moan about compactness, yet the damn thing is sold with a zoom for a kit lens. However, with an APS-c sensor or larger, the k-mount makes sense size wise anyway. As far as the shutters go, they have been improved dramatically since the 1950s.

One aspect to the mirrorless paradigm from a manufacturing stand point is to make them cheap with planned disposable bodies to have a large margin.

Let me ask you this. Does your car have round tires on it made out of rubber? Your film era argument is a strawman. Photography still requires an optical lens to focus an image on a sensor. That still requires the ability to focus it, time it and control the sensitivity etc.
10-03-2010, 06:57 PM   #178
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If Pentax came out with a system along the lines of the Fuji X100 that took interchangeable lens, the DA ltd series 15mm, 21mm, 35mm, 40mm and 70mm, it would be a big deal. The X100 has the aps-c sensor and 23mm lens and the hybrid finder that works as an optical (granted not ttl) and the evf which is ttl. 3 of these Da lenses including the 70 are pancake lenses and the 15 and 35 aren't very large. Who really cares the registration distance would be the same that has since 1952. 99% of the Joes on the street don't know what the registration distance is much less the actual measurement of there body.
10-03-2010, 07:06 PM   #179
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I was talking about the mount itself. No one mentioned registration distance. Given that we were talking about aps-c sized stuff, I was talking about the mount in comparison to the NX mount.

Well if the mirrorless stuff was designed from the ground up, they need to scrap that junk and start over if it is supposed to be better dSLRs. It is all in the pursuit of interchangeable lens P & S. Then hang some guys retrofitting adapters because some registry distances allow an adapter for certain vintage glass such as the Canon L glass. The 4/3 and micro 4/3 has been organized chaos. What these aps-c systems have done is added to the chaos to a certain degree.
I'll take it you are no fan of EVIL's. That's fine, but I like both SLR's an EVIL's, and I look forward to Pentax making both.

QuoteQuote:
Furthermore, the Pentax registration distance doesn't have jack-shit to do with screw drive motors etc etc etc. Pentax has used that registration distance all the way back to 1952. I suggest you actually get one of those Asahiflex and either an AP or a K body and look at how small they are in your hand. As far as an optical viewfinder goes, there's no replacement for seeing what you are photographing ttl in certain types of photography.
Ok, so not screw drive, but it does make clearance for a mirror box, which is obviously no longer needed. I simply mentioned screw drive because that is just one more item from the film era that is no longer required. And thanks for the tip, but I've used a Pentax K1000, ME Super, and currently my main camera is a Pentax LX. They are all quite small, but they won't fit in a pocket like a Sony NEX5 can. You should really test out the Olympus clip on EVF. I much prefer using that to any APS-C DSLR viewfinder. The sad truth is optical view finders just aren't as good as they used to be. That may change one day, but there doesn't seem to be much of a demand for it, so I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for an OVF as good as the Pentax LX has.

QuoteQuote:
Who really cares the registration distance would be the same that has since 1952. 99% of the Joes on the street don't know what the registration distance is much less the actual measurement of there body.
They will care when their camera bodies are twice as thick as Sony and m4/3's.

I don't really understand why you're so upset about these Pentax EVIL rumors. I suggest not reading about it if it's going to upset you. Some people prefer DSRL's, some prefer EVIL's...life goes on.
10-03-2010, 07:47 PM   #180
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To my opinion for tele the EVIL's are no good because I need a proper OVF and grip to hold such lens (icw large sensor). But a small EVIL with wide pancake lenses and (via adapter) compatible with collection of DSLR lenses would be great for many Pentax fans.
- Nikon and Canon will do the same and it will hurt Panasonic and Olympus.

If you only need one lenses on your compact EVIL then they can also consider the large sensor fixed lens idea. But in that case transition to other brand is easier...
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