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10-05-2010, 02:20 AM   #196
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I had no idea that the GF1 was so expensive outside of Japan. Here are some samples in the country.

i.com - gf1̌

P.S. Check out the auction prices in the "Yahoo!" column on the left.

10-05-2010, 02:25 AM   #197
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QuoteOriginally posted by hcarvalhoalves Quote
The problem that remains, though, is the EVF quality. Further development of EVIL cameras will be ultimately defined by how good of a LED screen they can develop.
That's true.

I was photographing Oktoberfest and enjoyed taking my photos when I saw (thru my viewfinder ) a tourist approaching and asking if I could take a picture (with his camera). Sure, I said. He fiddled with the tilt & swivel screen but then I said: Your camera seems to have a viewfinder, let's take that (it was bright sun shine!). And so I did. But switching from my OVF to his camera's EVF made me think I was blindfolded What a pain! I could hardly see the image and don't ask me if I've cut the feets

It may not have been the best EVF, I don't know. I am curious. I don't remember the camera make.

Interestingly, the camera had a tilt & swivel and an integrated EVF which was at the upper left corner of the rear (like a rangefinder ). What camera was it? Can't find it. Maybe old?
10-05-2010, 03:24 AM   #198
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
This is the real reason the historically electronics based companies are pushing EVIL. They are cheaper to manufacture giving them a big margin. However, at some point the prices will shift. The big issue is what the longevity of some of these things will be. For example, how long will the NX lenses be usable or will they become orphaned. I think the historical photography based companies are looking at possible new mounts from a sustainability aspect. They don't want to create and short lived mount and orphan it.
Put it the other way. If small mirrorless cameras become more popular than larger cameras with DSLR mounts, how long will it take before older DSLR mounts are abandoned?

Olympus has kind of abandoned their DSLR mount already, and putting all efforts on mirrorless MFT cameras. I doubt that Sony will manufacture lenses for two different mount for ever. My guess is that it's A-mount that Sony will abandon, and only support those lenses with an E-mount adapter sometime in the future.
All other DSLR manufacturer will face the same problem, and need to be prepared for the future. Manufacturers like Panasonic, Sony and Canon that are big on video will want to use a mount that they can share between photography and video optimized cameras, and any old DSLR mount are not very well optimized for this.
10-05-2010, 04:03 AM   #199
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As an E-P2 owner I will definitely concur on the rear screen. It's no better or worse than Live View on a DSLR. However, I find that the optional hot shot OVF to be quite good. I have a KX and K7 also (although the KX is currently for sale). The Olympus is much easier to manual focus with the optional viewfinder than either Pentax camera. I think something like the GH1/GH2 is the trend with these cameras. If you look at them they are basically small electronic DSLR's. No doubt they auto focus slower than a DSLR. I'm not sure that everyone needs a spray and pray camera though. They are an unusual niche camera but I think they are selling very well in Japan and there seems to be a lot of European forum members on the Micro Four Thirds forum. I'm not sure about here in the US.

I will also add that the people on that forum who have bought these cameras seem very pleased with them. I don't see much negativity towards the cameras like you read here on this forum. Of course I think that's a case of you knew what you were buying when you got an E-P2 or GH1. I haven't met too many unhappy E-P2 users and two friends of mine bought them after trying mine out. Again, for the right person these are great cameras.

I am also a bit surprised by the pricing on the GH1. I've been very pleased with the E-P2 but it wasn't exactly cheap. I've had the camera for several months and haven't regretted purchasing it once. I will say the Panasonic lenses seem to be better than the Olympus ones, but they are quite pricey too. On the plus side they are working on several prime lenses a 14mm and a 25mm. The 20mm F1.7 and 45mm F2.8 is as good a lens as any of the DA Limited's. Cosina Voigtlander is also apparently making a 25mm F.095 for the mount too. So if you like prime lense photography there are more options. I will agree with an early poster that for really long telephoto these probably aren't the best cameras. I don't do that kind of photography so I'm just guessing. My friend go the Olympus 14-150mm. It's a nice lens and optically very good, but I wouldn't want one. It is quite tiny.

BTW- I want to thank you (Falconeye). A while back in some thread I don't remember you talked about the Novoflex adapters. I'm not sure I would have discovered the company if you hadn't mentioned it. I have one for K mount and one for M42. They are both great. I'll probably end up keeping a few of my SMC M lenses to use on the E-P2 because the adapter is so well made.

10-05-2010, 04:06 AM   #200
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I don't see the SLRs and their respective mounts going away, although they may become somewhat specialized and focused on the pro/semi pro market. I just can't see sticking a 50-135 f2.8 zoom on the Sony Nex and shooting with it for any length of time. Some of the size, weight, and ergonomics are a basic necessity for extended shooting. Slow lenses and pancakes can make an almost pocketable camera and that is probably its niche.
10-05-2010, 04:16 AM   #201
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Some people have stated their wish for an OVF interchangeable-lens rangefinder similar to the new Fuji X100. But is it possible? How would it be implemented across the range from ultra-wide to telephoto?

Would a zoomable viewfinder do the job, or a replaceable OVF unit that matches the lens? Or perhaps EVF-projected crop lines that match the lens attached?
10-05-2010, 04:43 AM   #202
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
That's true.

I was photographing Oktoberfest and enjoyed taking my photos when I saw (thru my viewfinder ) a tourist approaching and asking if I could take a picture (with his camera). Sure, I said. He fiddled with the tilt & swivel screen but then I said: Your camera seems to have a viewfinder, let's take that (it was bright sun shine!). And so I did. But switching from my OVF to his camera's EVF made me think I was blindfolded What a pain! I could hardly see the image and don't ask me if I've cut the feets

It may not have been the best EVF, I don't know. I am curious. I don't remember the camera make.

Interestingly, the camera had a tilt & swivel and an integrated EVF which was at the upper left corner of the rear (like a rangefinder ). What camera was it? Can't find it. Maybe old?
That would be something like an Olympus C-8080. It was released in early 2004, and it's hardly surprising that the EVF is something like looking through a Coke bottle.
It's nothing like the very good EVFs you get on the Panasonic G1, GH1, G2 & GH2. The exception is the G10, which has an inferior EVF.
10-05-2010, 04:51 AM   #203
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't see the SLRs and their respective mounts going away, although they may become somewhat specialized and focused on the pro/semi pro market. I just can't see sticking a 50-135 f2.8 zoom on the Sony Nex and shooting with it for any length of time. Some of the size, weight, and ergonomics are a basic necessity for extended shooting. Slow lenses and pancakes can make an almost pocketable camera and that is probably its niche.
There is nothing preventing from making a big camera with a short register distance mount, or preventing making big fast zooms for it.
Pancakes for short distance mount can also be made much faster (or smaller) than on a DSLR mount, just check the difference in size on Sony 16/2.8 for NEX with Pentax DA 15/4 Ltd.

With a shorter register distance any manufacturer have the advantage of making many different types of cameras and lenses with the same mount, and then lock in more users on their equipment. I doubt that many manufactures want to skip that possibility.

10-05-2010, 06:56 AM   #204
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
It's nothing like the very good EVFs you get on the Panasonic G1, GH1, G2 & GH2. The exception is the G10, which has an inferior EVF.
Exactly!, unless it was one of those cameras or an EP-2 or EPL1 with clip on EVF then you shouldn't form any opinion on EVF's yet. All of those EVF's can drastically change ones opinion of EVF's. They still aren't as good as something like a Sony A900 OVF, but I'd take one in a second over a pentamirror APS-C OVF. Plus, Panasonic claims they are going to get drastically better in the next few years. Unfortunately their marketing department made them focus on 3D with the GH2 while their engineers were more interested in working on better EVF's and a global shutter. Perhaps the engineers will get their way for the GH3.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't see the SLRs and their respective mounts going away, although they may become somewhat specialized and focused on the pro/semi pro market.
That would be my guess. Action photographers/pros and enthusiasts that just prefer DSLR's will stick with them, but I can't see many other people using them. If I were a landscape guy I'd prefer EVIL's so I would have less bulk to carry when I hike (imagine how much smaller a medium format EVIL would be compared to the 645D). As a portrait photographer I'd actually prefer EVF's to OVF's for their true DOF preview.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I really can't see your average P&S upgrader choosing a DSLR over an EVIL if the IQ is the same (which it will be) and the AF speed is comparable. I've never once handed my DSLR over to a friend that didn't ask how do I turn the screen on? P&S people don't care one iota about optical view finders.

Last edited by Art Vandelay II; 10-05-2010 at 07:06 AM.
10-05-2010, 07:12 AM   #205
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Put it the other way. If small mirrorless cameras become more popular than larger cameras with DSLR mounts, how long will it take before older DSLR mounts are abandoned?
This may be one of the reasons why we don't get a FF in K-mount.
10-05-2010, 07:21 AM   #206
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QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
This may be one of the reasons why we don't get a FF in K-mount.
What does the mount have to do with Pentax making or not making a ff dSLR? The k-mount has worked on ff bodies for 35 years.
10-05-2010, 07:26 AM   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
Some people have stated their wish for an OVF interchangeable-lens rangefinder similar to the new Fuji X100. But is it possible? How would it be implemented across the range from ultra-wide to telephoto?

Would a zoomable viewfinder do the job, or a replaceable OVF unit that matches the lens? Or perhaps EVF-projected crop lines that match the lens attached?
It may require an auxiliary shoe-mount vf for use with additional lenses. For example, the optical in camera vf could be optimized for the 35mm and 40 DA ltd . They could have 2 additional shoe mounts finders, one that worked with the 15mm and 21 ltd and another for the 70mm ltd. Originally, the shoe on rangefinder film bodies was for this very thing. Even Voightlander's current rangefinder lenses come with a matching viewfinder. Even Pentax had a matching viewfinder for their L 43mm/1.8 Special lens for Leica Rangefinders.

Edit: The EF part of the hybrid should work with all 5 lenses.
10-05-2010, 07:27 AM   #208
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
What does the mount have to do with Pentax making or not making a ff dSLR? The k-mount has worked on ff bodies for 35 years.
He was implying that Pentax sees more of a future in EVIL's then they do with full frame DSLR's, so they are focusing on thier upcoming mirrorless camera instead of full frame. For the record I think that's a smart move. As much as I'd love a full frame K5 myself, I'm in the minority on that one.

Perhaps Pentax could appease both camps and make a full frame EVIL. Yeah right
10-05-2010, 07:29 AM   #209
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
What does the mount have to do with Pentax making or not making a ff dSLR? The k-mount has worked on ff bodies for 35 years.
If they have a new mount on it's way that they expect to take marketshare from K-mount dslr in a few years, it might be hard to get investmants back from a FF line.
10-05-2010, 07:31 AM   #210
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QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
Some people have stated their wish for an OVF interchangeable-lens rangefinder similar to the new Fuji X100. But is it possible? How would it be implemented across the range from ultra-wide to telephoto?

Would a zoomable viewfinder do the job, or a replaceable OVF unit that matches the lens? Or perhaps EVF-projected crop lines that match the lens attached?
A zoomable OVF would be an engineering nightmare, and probably only be feasible for a fairly narrow zoom range.

I continue to preach that EVILs are stupid for big zooms and long glass, those belong on SLRs. EVILs are perfect for semi wide to short tele primes, Thom Hogan notwithstanding I think Fuji has the best understanding of the problem thusfar and wisely didn't try to stuff a zoom into the X100.

People want a perfect all in one tool, it won't happen: anymore than a driverironwedgieputter golf club.
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