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10-05-2010, 03:14 PM   #226
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Apparently, he thinks Pentax is planning on cannabilizing their k-mount dSLR with the release of a EVIL with a new mount. That would be a grave mistake imho. They would risk orphaning both mounts.
QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
I think this is pretty much unavoidable, either Pentax come up with an EVIL with a new mount that takes some market share from K-mount cameras, or the competition will. A new mount EVIL camera will also take some market share from other types of cameras, so it is a good chance for Pentax to expand its user base.

In the long run the new mount will be the future of Pentax cameras, just like when they went from m42 to K-mount.
In my opinion, the answer is for Pentax to use micro 4/3 on any EVIL camera they produce. This does a few things:

1. Saves R&D money by not developing a new mount.
2. Using micro 4/3 means the mount will not be orphaned, because then 3 manufacturers would have the same mount.
3. Put that R&D money into a PK -> micro 4/3 adapter, with fully working screw AF and aperture lever control. And make the adapter with smart electronics, that enables ANY of the Pentax AF lenses to be used with CDAF. This would also work on Panasonic & Olympus micro 4/3.
4. With a micro 4/3 mount adapter with CDAF, some Panasonic & Olympus micro 4/3 users would see Pentax as a realistic option for a "new" range of lenses for their cameras. (Pentax could take some market share on new lenses)
5. Pentax could take market share in micro 4/3 camera bodies away from Panasonic & Olympus. e.g. I have Panasonic G-series cameras, but I would happily buy a Pentax micro 4/3.

10-05-2010, 03:51 PM   #227
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
In my opinion, the answer is for Pentax to use micro 4/3 on any EVIL camera they produce. This does a few things:

1. Saves R&D money by not developing a new mount.
2. Using micro 4/3 means the mount will not be orphaned, because then 3 manufacturers would have the same mount.
3. Put that R&D money into a PK -> micro 4/3 adapter, with fully working screw AF and aperture lever control. And make the adapter with smart electronics, that enables ANY of the Pentax AF lenses to be used with CDAF. This would also work on Panasonic & Olympus micro 4/3.
4. With a micro 4/3 mount adapter with CDAF, some Panasonic & Olympus micro 4/3 users would see Pentax as a realistic option for a "new" range of lenses for their cameras. (Pentax could take some market share on new lenses)
5. Pentax could take market share in micro 4/3 camera bodies away from Panasonic & Olympus. e.g. I have Panasonic G-series cameras, but I would happily buy a Pentax micro 4/3.

or Pentax could just simply build an EVIL APS-C with a K-mounting. all Pentax needs to do there is to remove the mirror and save themselves the trouble of building lens adapters.
10-05-2010, 04:12 PM   #228
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
In my opinion, the answer is for Pentax to use micro 4/3 on any EVIL camera they produce. This does a few things:
QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
5. Pentax could take market share in micro 4/3 camera bodies away from Panasonic & Olympus. e.g. I have Panasonic G-series cameras, but I would happily buy a Pentax micro 4/3.
Your #5 is what makes me think that Panasonic and Olympus would say no to the idea in the first place. Such a deal only makes sense to Hoya, not the others.

Besides which, I can't help but wonder if it isn't already a bit late to get involved in that particular segment. Maybe I'm asking the impossible of a Japanese firm at this time, but I'd like to see Pentax leap right over the current first-generation of EVIL designs altogether. Also, it would be great if they could make a new mount that could be an open standard as K mount is/was.

QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
or Pentax could just simply build an EVIL APS-C with a K-mounting. all Pentax needs to do there is to remove the mirror and save themselves the trouble of building lens adapters.
Frankly, I doubt that backward compatibility really means all that much to Hoya at this stage.
10-05-2010, 04:43 PM   #229
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Awesome work. Is it already have a prototype yet??

10-05-2010, 08:03 PM   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
or Pentax could just simply build an EVIL APS-C with a K-mounting. all Pentax needs to do there is to remove the mirror and save themselves the trouble of building lens adapters.
Who would want that? Not me.
I want a slim EVIL body, not a DSLR sized camera with the mirror removed!
10-05-2010, 08:29 PM   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
Your #5 is what makes me think that Panasonic and Olympus would say no to the idea in the first place. Such a deal only makes sense to Hoya, not the others.

Besides which, I can't help but wonder if it isn't already a bit late to get involved in that particular segment. Maybe I'm asking the impossible of a Japanese firm at this time, but I'd like to see Pentax leap right over the current first-generation of EVIL designs altogether. Also, it would be great if they could make a new mount that could be an open standard as K mount is/was.



Frankly, I doubt that backward compatibility really means all that much to Hoya at this stage.
I don't see any company quaking with fear because Pentax is entering their market. I see Pentax quaking with fear at the concept of trying to sell cameras to people not locked into their lens mount, and where they'd have to actually deliver new lenses.
10-05-2010, 09:37 PM   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Who would want that? Not me.
I want a slim EVIL body, not a DSLR sized camera with the mirror removed!
Well, this is the sort of thing that I mean....

Pentax could build the SMALLEST micro 4/3, and beat Panasonic to the punch.
10-05-2010, 09:53 PM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Who would want that? Not me.
I want a slim EVIL body, not a DSLR sized camera with the mirror removed!
if they make a FF, I would. besides, there would definitely be an improvement with regards to FPS, more effective shake and blur control due to the elimination of the mirror slap, much stable and longer video recording time rather than having to settle for a few minutes of recording due to a overheating sensor, I can also see an improvement with regards to AF-C fps shooting. although it would be nice to have a slim body, and I admit that, if you are considering using the pancake lenses on them exclusively for ease of use. but you must also consider the other lenses that you are going to mount on it as well. and I dont think that all people would just shoot with the pancake lenses but bigger ones as well. in that scenario where people would want a better balance with their camera and big lens, a bigger body would suffice.

anyway, I dont think it would still be technically correct to say mirrorless dslr since you already removed the reflex part of the mechanism and also replacing the OVF with EVF. it is technically an APS-C EVIL body already.

all we can hope is that Pentax would be able to copy what Fuji has done with regards to their VF. if they are able to do that, then I can't see any problem with it.

for me, building an adapter would sound good as far as full usability with bigger lenses is concerned, but I'm doubtful that the AF operation will be as fast and as fluid. not to mention such extension would somehow make the camera itself longer. and finally, my feeling on this proposed adapter is that it would definitely be costly. my take is around $600-$700.

10-06-2010, 01:46 AM   #234
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
if they make a FF, I would. besides, there would definitely be an improvement with regards to FPS, more effective shake and blur control due to the elimination of the mirror slap, much stable and longer video recording time rather than having to settle for a few minutes of recording due to a overheating sensor, I can also see an improvement with regards to AF-C fps shooting. although it would be nice to have a slim body, and I admit that, if you are considering using the pancake lenses on them exclusively for ease of use. but you must also consider the other lenses that you are going to mount on it as well. and I dont think that all people would just shoot with the pancake lenses but bigger ones as well. in that scenario where people would want a better balance with their camera and big lens, a bigger body would suffice.
This is the reason why I think new "micro" mounts will replace DSLR mounts. Most new users will start with a slim EVIL body, but later their needs might change and they want to use longer FL and for that a bigger body is better. But they also want to be able to share equipment on both bodies. So in the future there will be EVIL cameras in many different sizes and with all kinds of lenses for them. Maybe there also be some extension grips for slim EVIL cameras to make them bigger and better suited for longer FL.
QuoteQuote:
anyway, I dont think it would still be technically correct to say mirrorless dslr since you already removed the reflex part of the mechanism and also replacing the OVF with EVF. it is technically an APS-C EVIL body already.

all we can hope is that Pentax would be able to copy what Fuji has done with regards to their VF. if they are able to do that, then I can't see any problem with it.
For being able to make a combined OVF/EVF on a interchangable lens camera without to many limitations it's probably necessary to use SLR design. The VF Fuji choose for x100 is only really usable on a fixed lens camera with fixed FL. To do the same on a interchangeable lens camera or with a zoom lens would be very difficult and probably much more complicated/expensive that using SLR design. But some like RF cameras so there is probably a market for those too, and they can also be made with the same "micro" mount.
QuoteQuote:
for me, building an adapter would sound good as far as full usability with bigger lenses is concerned, but I'm doubtful that the AF operation will be as fast and as fluid. not to mention such extension would somehow make the camera itself longer. and finally, my feeling on this proposed adapter is that it would definitely be costly. my take is around $600-$700.
I don't think it's the adapter in it self that is the problem, it's using PDAF optimized lenses with CDAF, and that would be as difficult if using K-mount without mirror. CDAF speed has improved on latest DSLR, but it's still not very good. And AF in video is useless on these cameras as it hunts too much. I think it is necessary to build a new system with CDAF in mind from start for it to be as good as possible. But older PDAF lenses will not work as well on these cameras as on SLRs with PDAF.
10-06-2010, 02:10 AM   #235
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EVIL market is crowded....BUT

If Pentax makes "Leica for poormen" and even better...it could be very attractive product.

I mean: DSLR like control, retro design body, electro-optical VF, WR body with short flange focal distance, fast pancakes and WR primes, very compact WR zooms.
Maybe Ó la X100 with better ergonomic, WR and interchangeable lenses...

The train of EVIL is fast, that's why mirroless from Pentax MUST be launched not later spring 2011.
10-06-2010, 06:16 AM   #236
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
I don't think it's the adapter in it self that is the problem, it's using PDAF optimized lenses with CDAF, and that would be as difficult if using K-mount without mirror. CDAF speed has improved on latest DSLR, but it's still not very good. And AF in video is useless on these cameras as it hunts too much. I think it is necessary to build a new system with CDAF in mind from start for it to be as good as possible. But older PDAF lenses will not work as well on these cameras as on SLRs with PDAF.
I guess you have not used the Panasonic GH1.

The CDAF is quick. The AF on video is smooth and accurate, and it doesn't hunt.
10-06-2010, 06:28 AM   #237
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
I guess you have not used the Panasonic GH1.

The CDAF is quick. The AF on video is smooth and accurate, and it doesn't hunt.
That is exacly my point as GH1 is a CDAF optimized camera that use CDAF optimied lenses.

But if you use PDAF optimized 4/3 lenses on GH1 the AF will be much slower. That is not because the adapter, it is because PDAF lenses do not work well on a CDAF camera.
10-06-2010, 12:03 PM   #238
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Apparently the GH2 focuses much better with PDAF lenses than the GF1 did...not that I care, the only non-native glass I'd want to use on any of these cameras is old manual focus glass. Olympus does however have to be concerned about keeping their user base content. A rumor came out a few days ago that they are working on a hybrid CDAF/PDAF system that will be used in their new EP3. The PDAF supposedly aids the CDAF in judging distance. One good side effect is regular 4/3's lenses work much better when using their adapter. Who knows though, that is just a rumor. It could just be some fanboy dream.
10-06-2010, 03:21 PM   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
I guess you have not used the Panasonic GH1.

The CDAF is quick. The AF on video is smooth and accurate, and it doesn't hunt.
QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
That is exacly my point as GH1 is a CDAF optimized camera that use CDAF optimied lenses.

But if you use PDAF optimized 4/3 lenses on GH1 the AF will be much slower. That is not because the adapter, it is because PDAF lenses do not work well on a CDAF camera.
That's why in my earlier point mentioned a "smart" electronic adapter, not the "straight through" adapter tha we currently have from Pany & Oly. We talk about lenses not being "optimised" for CDAF, but what does that mean? It is NOT the glass, it is the lens' communication and focusing electronics.

When I suggested that Pentax use micro 4/3, but have a "smart" adapter(PK-micro 4/3), I was talking about aperture stop down and focusing motors in the adapter(there's around 24mm of space for this). And then I said it should have "smart" adapter that emulates a CDAF compliant lens.

I didn't mention that the price is important. What they could do is have a few different kits along with a tiny micro 4/3 camera:
1. Camera plus 18mm pancake. Say $500
2. Camera plus 14-80mm zoom. Say $550
3. Camera plus 18mm pancake & smart adapter. Say $600
4. Camera plus 14-80mm zoom & smart adapter. Say $650
10-06-2010, 05:08 PM   #240
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
That's why in my earlier point mentioned a "smart" electronic adapter, not the "straight through" adapter tha we currently have from Pany & Oly. We talk about lenses not being "optimised" for CDAF, but what does that mean? It is NOT the glass, it is the lens' communication and focusing electronics.

When I suggested that Pentax use micro 4/3, but have a "smart" adapter(PK-micro 4/3), I was talking about aperture stop down and focusing motors in the adapter(there's around 24mm of space for this). And then I said it should have "smart" adapter that emulates a CDAF compliant lens.
I doubt this is really possible, as CDAF and PDAF works very differently. With PDAF the camera know in what direction and how much the focus must be changed, and then send a command to the lens for doing the movement. With CDAF the camera do not know in what direction or how much it needs to move, so it changes focus in small step and check if focus has improved between movements. And it continue doing this until it has found focus.
The only way i see for optimizing CDAF on the converter would be to let the adapter do all focusing (like on Pentax 1.7x AF TC), but then there have to be glass in the converter which might degrade performance of the lens. But AF would also work on manual focus lenses.

Last edited by Fogel70; 10-06-2010 at 05:29 PM.
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