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09-17-2010, 08:35 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Imagined. I saw a huge lens without a grip.
The new Nikon 24-120mm f/4 is only 3.3x4" (84mm x 103.5mm). And it is designed for a full frame DSLR and has VR built into the lens. It's reasonable to assume Pentax could make a similar lens without VR for an EVIL that is only 3x3.5". That would hardly be an issue on a gripless camera. The Panasonic 45-150mm m4/3's lens is about that size and it was fine on my E-P1.

09-17-2010, 08:38 AM   #47
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No glass VF = I don't care.
09-17-2010, 08:48 AM   #48
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Well thanks for chiming in, but it's only a matter of time before EVIL's start outselling DSLR's, it would be suicide for Pentax not to have one. Samsung is obviously full of s*#% in most things camera related, but they recently predicted EVIL's to outsell DSLR's by 2013. I mean sheesh, they've already consumed 30% of the market in Japan without a Canikon offering. That's pretty amazing.
09-17-2010, 09:06 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Well thanks for chiming in, but it's only a matter of time before EVIL's start outselling DSLR's, it would be suicide for Pentax not to have one. Samsung is obviously full of s*#% in most things camera related, but they recently predicted EVIL's to outsell DSLR's by 2013. I mean sheesh, they've already consumed 30% of the market in Japan without a Canikon offering. That's pretty amazing.
That is a statistical artifact. The EVIL's are bundled with DSLR's but that doesn't mean it steal customers from it. DSLR's are increasing alot in volume and this indicate that EVIL's are stealing P&S customers....

09-17-2010, 09:14 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by lurchlarson Quote
I think that Pentax would be smart, should they make an EVIL, to emulate the body of the 110. I know they have a PnS right now that looks like that but if they made it a regular EVIL, I think it would sell well.
Handy enough to take along to the EVIL petting zoo.

Oh. Never mind ......
09-17-2010, 09:28 AM   #51
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Why stop at FF? Since we are all drinking the Kool Aid and there's no penalties for being wrong on the Internets, I predict a WR EVIl withe sensor from the ... wait for it ... 645D!
09-17-2010, 09:53 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Why stop at FF? Since we are all drinking the Kool Aid and there's no penalties for being wrong on the Internets, I predict a WR EVIl withe sensor from the ... wait for it ... 645D!
Perfect!

We'll call it the "Expanded Very Impossibly Large" compact mirrorless camera! (TM by me, of course.)
09-17-2010, 01:08 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
The new Nikon 24-120mm f/4 is only 3.3x4" (84mm x 103.5mm).
That lens has a 77mm filter mount and weighs 710g. What on earth is the point of making tiny camera bodies with a lot of compromises and then mount monster lenses on them?

I'm think mirrorless cameras with pancake lenses or small retractable moderate-range zooms is an interesting lightweight alternative to DSLRs, in fact if my budget would allow a second system, I would be interested in buying one as my carry-everywhere camera and save some weight and bulk (I carry my K10D with a couple of lenses around almost every day, e.g. when walking to work).

But mirrorless cameras with giant zoom lenses is just silly.

09-17-2010, 01:56 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
That lens has a 77mm filter mount and weighs 710g. What on earth is the point of making tiny camera bodies with a lot of compromises and then mount monster lenses on them?

I'm think mirrorless cameras with pancake lenses or small retractable moderate-range zooms is an interesting lightweight alternative to DSLRs, in fact if my budget would allow a second system, I would be interested in buying one as my carry-everywhere camera and save some weight and bulk (I carry my K10D with a couple of lenses around almost every day, e.g. when walking to work).

But mirrorless cameras with giant zoom lenses is just silly.
And that's the EVIL conundrum. Go to a tourist area where a lot of folks are toting dSLRs. How many are shooting primes? I'd hazard a guess that it's in the single digits, and low single digits at that. They may be rarer than hen's teeth or Pentaxians. So the audience for which EVILs make the most sense - enthusiasts that use prime lenses - is miniscule.

That said, EVILs are still smaller than dSLRs when you attach a consumer, variable aperture zoom on them, and the success of that package will determine the success of the form factor.
09-17-2010, 02:13 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
That lens has a 77mm filter mount and weighs 710g. What on earth is the point of making tiny camera bodies with a lot of compromises and then mount monster lenses on them?
Whoever said all EVIL's must be minuscule? I personally would like to see a range of cameras in all shapes and sizes. Some people prefer large cameras, some small. That's the beauty of a mirrorless system, without the mirror box and prism designers are free to create whatever shape they choose. Saying it doesn't make sense to put a large lens on something the size of a Sony NEX 5 is no different then saying it doesn't make sense to put a large lens on a Pentax K-x.

Besides, as I said, based on the drastic downsizing Olympus and Panasonic have shown in their 4/3's vs m4/3's lenses it's reasonable to assume Pentax could make a 24-120mm f/4 much smaller than that Nikon with the 77mm diameter. The Panasonic 45-200mm is 70x100mm and it handles just fine on the tiny E-P1. I personally would like to have an EVIL more like Adam B's LX design at the start of this thread. A design like that could easily accommodate 500g lenses.
09-17-2010, 02:24 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
And that's the EVIL conundrum. Go to a tourist area where a lot of folks are toting dSLRs. How many are shooting primes? I'd hazard a guess that it's in the single digits, and low single digits at that. They may be rarer than hen's teeth or Pentaxians. So the audience for which EVILs make the most sense - enthusiasts that use prime lenses - is miniscule.
You're right. An FF EVIL makes sense only with prime lenses. What people are dreaming of here, is an "M9 killer", but that's something for the camera gourmets.

To really capture the interest of P&S users, you may need to use even smaller sensors than m4/3. Isn't Nikon rumored to do this?
09-17-2010, 02:32 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Saying it doesn't make sense to put a large lens on something the size of a Sony NEX 5 is no different then saying it doesn't make sense to put a large lens on a Pentax K-x.
Of course it's different. A K-x is a real camera with a proper viewfinder which is easy to hold with a heavy lens mounted. How are you supposed to hold a NEX-5 with a 700g lens mounted?
09-17-2010, 02:39 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Well thanks for chiming in, but it's only a matter of time before EVIL's start outselling DSLR's, it would be suicide for Pentax not to have one. Samsung is obviously full of s*#% in most things camera related, but they recently predicted EVIL's to outsell DSLR's by 2013. I mean sheesh, they've already consumed 30% of the market in Japan without a Canikon offering. That's pretty amazing.
Canon might be entering this market early 2011. If the camera that's been "leaked" on the internet is accurate it's going to be quite a sophisticated EVIL. The sensor is basically a micro 4/3. I'm not a big Canon fan, but if what I read is correct, I would definitely buy that camera.

I'd be willing to bet Pentax will release an EVIL before a FF.
09-17-2010, 03:36 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Of course it's different. A K-x is a real camera with a proper viewfinder which is easy to hold with a heavy lens mounted. How are you supposed to hold a NEX-5 with a 700g lens mounted?
Wow, according to you in order to be a "real camera" it has to have a an optical view finder (even a horrible tiny pentamirror). I wonder how this shot, as well as this and this were all taken with fake cameras.

Again, the beauty of a mirrorless system is a person could buy a large body to accomodate larger lenses, but also buy a cheap travel/hiking body and share lenses between the two. All the small pancake primes you use on your travel camera could be used on your larger camera. And if for some reason you do decide to mount a large lens onto something the size of the NEX5 well then I imagine you would put your left hand on the lens and right hand on the camera body. It would be different from a DSLR, but it's not like it would be impossible to operate.

I have nothing against DSLR's, well, at least not ones with decent view finders (which are few and far between), but EVIL's are just far more versatile and better suited the type of photography I like to do. I can't wait to see what Pentax has in store. Maybe I can finally stop using my Pentax LX and get back into the digital world if Pentax releases something along the lines of Adams mock up.
09-17-2010, 03:47 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
I have nothing against DSLR's, well, at least not ones with decent view finders (which are few and far between), but EVIL's are just far more versatile and better suited the type of photography I like to do. .
I cannot fathom what kind of photography benefits from a bad viewfinder.....
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