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09-17-2010, 04:02 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
I cannot fathom what kind of photography benefits from a bad viewfinder.....
Have you ever tried using an EVF like in the Panasonic G2 or Olympus EV-2 accessory finder? If those are bad view finders then how do you classify every single pentamirror ever made? Because I'd take the EVF in a Panasonic GH1 over a Nikon D5000 OVF any day of the week. OVF's like the K7 has are acceptable, but they are still really tiny. To me they're no more usable than a good EVF. Now if you want to talk about a good OVF like in a Sony A900, well, then that's a different story. Unfortunately there are only two cameras on the market at the moment with OVF's of that quality (not counting medium format), the aforementioned A900 as well as the Canon 1Ds, and both of those are just a touch large to use for street photography....which is were EVIL's excel at and why I prefer them.

I really don't understand the hostility towards EVIL's. I've never read anyone say companies should stop making DSLR's, but DSLR users almost seem offended that someone could possibly choose and prefer another type of camera.


Last edited by Art Vandelay II; 09-17-2010 at 04:08 PM.
09-17-2010, 07:04 PM   #62
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Because for a small company like Pentax, it would be a waste of resources?

I've yet to see a decent EVIL. The Sony NEX comes close. The Samsung NX and Panasonic G-1 and GH-1 fail miserably.
09-17-2010, 07:21 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Have you ever tried using an EVF like in the Panasonic G2 or Olympus EV-2 accessory finder? If those are bad view finders then how do you classify every single pentamirror ever made? Because I'd take the EVF in a Panasonic GH1 over a Nikon D5000 OVF any day of the week. OVF's like the K7 has are acceptable, but they are still really tiny. To me they're no more usable than a good EVF. Now if you want to talk about a good OVF like in a Sony A900, well, then that's a different story. Unfortunately there are only two cameras on the market at the moment with OVF's of that quality (not counting medium format), the aforementioned A900 as well as the Canon 1Ds, and both of those are just a touch large to use for street photography....which is were EVIL's excel at and why I prefer them.

I really don't understand the hostility towards EVIL's. I've never read anyone say companies should stop making DSLR's, but DSLR users almost seem offended that someone could possibly choose and prefer another type of camera.
Art- No kidding. This hostility thing absolutely cracks me up. Hey if you don't want one don't buy one. As an person who only uses manual focus I can say without hesitation the EV-2 is a much better viewfinder than the one on my K7 or KX (which is really basically useless as a manual focus viewfinder). The KX is about to be donated to a friend who is interested in moving from P&S to a better camera it gets so little use.

Anyway, like I said, I completely amused by how upset some folks get about whole mirrorless camera subject. I'm just not understanding where the rancor comes from. Look I have no real interest in a full frame camera, and if I did I would just go buy a Sony or Canon (as a prior Nikon film body owner I'm not a big Nikon fan). But...I could care less whether Pentax makes one or not. Hope they do, but I'm not emotionally invested in it. I wanted a mirrorless camera. Did I sit on this forum and whine and moan about Pentax not making one? Nope. I just went out and bought an Olympus E-P2. It's the happiest I think I've ever been with a camera body purchase. That's my sage advice for the day.

BTW- If that Canon mirrorless rumor is accurate that looks like one incredible camera. That I wouldn't hesitate to jump on.

Too all- I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY hope Pentax makes a Full Frame camera. I'm not buying one, so it makes absolutely no difference to me. But you can always buy a Canon or a Sony or...I suppose a Nikon. And if anyone is interested a friend of mine has a 5D MKII she's not using (too big and therefore basically no fun), if you are seriously interested, email me and I'll see if she's interested in selling it. She offered it to me, but quite frankly I just would never use it. She's pretty happy with the E-P2 she just bought.
09-17-2010, 09:58 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
Because for a small company like Pentax, it would be a waste of resources?

I've yet to see a decent EVIL. The Sony NEX comes close. The Samsung NX and Panasonic G-1 and GH-1 fail miserably.
It seems to me only Samsung understands which lenses users need.

09-17-2010, 11:50 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
Because for a small company like Pentax, it would be a waste of resources?
Waste of resources? It's a matter of survival. For a small company like Pentax, they cannot afford to miss the fastest growing (and eventually largest) segment of the DSLR market!

QuoteQuote:
I've yet to see a decent EVIL. The Sony NEX comes close. The Samsung NX and Panasonic G-1 and GH-1 fail miserably.
And so you would advice Pentax to give up based on other manufacturers' effort?
09-18-2010, 12:06 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
That is a statistical artifact. The EVIL's are bundled with DSLR's but that doesn't mean it steal customers from it. DSLR's are increasing alot in volume and this indicate that EVIL's are stealing P&S customers....
Not sure why you keep repeating this.
Even Canon realizes that DSLR and Mirrorless are going after the same users; and that's why they stated they would make a "compact DSLR" to combat the mirrorless.

And according to Pentax market research, 81% of total DSLR sales this year are to beginners and first time DSLR buyers. That's the market segment that entry DSLR and some of the mirrorless are targeting. Whether you consider that to be stealing from P&S or DSLR is irrelevant; as it is the same pie you are looking at. And if you ignore the economic downturn last year causing the reduction in sales, this year's DSLR sales is projected to have only 7.9% increase as compared with 2008. So if you take away the mirrorless portion, DSLR sales this year is almost flat vs 2008.


09-18-2010, 01:01 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Waste of resources? It's a matter of survival. For a small company like Pentax, they cannot afford to miss the fastest growing (and eventually largest) segment of the DSLR market!
Or it could fail miserably. Also, they're not DSLRs.

QuoteQuote:
And so you would advice Pentax to give up based on other manufacturers' effort?
Funny, that's the exact reason why you think Pentax should go into it.
09-18-2010, 01:37 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
And according to Pentax market research, 81% of total DSLR sales this year are to beginners and first time DSLR buyers. That's the market segment that entry DSLR and some of the mirrorless are targeting. Whether you consider that to be stealing from P&S or DSLR is irrelevant; as it is the same pie you are looking at. And if you ignore the economic downturn last year causing the reduction in sales, this year's DSLR sales is projected to have only 7.9% increase as compared with 2008. So if you take away the mirrorless portion, DSLR sales this year is almost flat vs 2008.
Those numbers reflect the same shift towards quality and value that is changing the face of every other consumer industry. The top end is withering, so the middle ground becomes the battleground. No real surprise, looking at those numbers, that Pentax-, Canon-, and Nikon-labeled mirrorless cameras are expected on the market ASAP. And it explains quite well why Nikon has done what it has with the D7000.

Whatever Hoya does now ("FF", MILC, whatever) it has to focus on the same quality and value that the market is looking for. With the first two checkboxes ticked, their recent attention to products with broad appeal looks pretty smart. I hope that having the 645D on the market is buying them the pro cachet they think they need. Looking at that graph, I suspect it's far too late for a MF-digital system to ever sell in numbers.

P.S. It's CIPA research that Hoya quotes in that graph.

09-18-2010, 02:18 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
Or it could fail miserably. Also, they're not DSLRs.
Well, they just have to keep trying if they want to stay in the business. Just like Sony when their entry level cameras failed and their 2009 and first half of 2010 were a total write-off, you would have to plan for the next product cycle to try to hit a home run.

Entry level is critical for them to stay in the business, so failure is not an option; otherwise Hoya would not keep Pentax.

I know mirrorless is not DSLR, there is just no widely accepted acronyms to describe the interchangeable lens cameras market.

QuoteQuote:
Funny, that's the exact reason why you think Pentax should go into it.
Yes, exactly! When there is no stand out product in the market, it would be Pentax's biggest opportunity to make a name for themselves. The window where the two dominant players are absent is closing. So Pentax should act fast.
09-18-2010, 03:17 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Wow, according to you in order to be a "real camera" it has to have a an optical view finder (even a horrible tiny pentamirror). I wonder how this shot,
Please avoid those straw men...
That first photo you link to was shot with a gf1 with a pancake, a wonderful combination, and a very different tool to use from a nex with a monster zoom lens.

Personally, my K10d with small prime lenses gives me the same joy of photography that my LX with prime lenses gave me. I just occasionally miss the large VF of the LX. Exactly what would I gain from a viewfinderless camera with a heavy zoom lens??
09-18-2010, 03:27 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
As an person who only uses manual focus .. KX .. is really basically useless as a manual focus viewfinder
I'm sorry it didn't work out for you but this is good for me to know. I thought the same when I tried it in the store but real world experience is much better to learn from.

QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
That first photo you link to was shot with a gf1 with a pancake, a wonderful combination, and a very different tool to use from a nex with a monster zoom lens.
Here's another portfolio from a fellow street shooter in Tokyo who uses that combo. The street-shooter's rangefinder descendant is already here, I'd say.
09-18-2010, 05:13 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Have you ever tried using an EVF like in the Panasonic G2 or Olympus EV-2 accessory finder? If those are bad view finders then how do you classify every single pentamirror ever made? Because I'd take the EVF in a Panasonic GH1 over a Nikon D5000 OVF any day of the week. OVF's like the K7 has are acceptable, but they are still really tiny. To me they're no more usable than a good EVF. Now if you want to talk about a good OVF like in a Sony A900, well, then that's a different story. Unfortunately there are only two cameras on the market at the moment with OVF's of that quality (not counting medium format), the aforementioned A900 as well as the Canon 1Ds, and both of those are just a touch large to use for street photography....which is were EVIL's excel at and why I prefer them.

I really don't understand the hostility towards EVIL's. I've never read anyone say companies should stop making DSLR's, but DSLR users almost seem offended that someone could possibly choose and prefer another type of camera.


QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
Because for a small company like Pentax, it would be a waste of resources?

I've yet to see a decent EVIL. The Sony NEX comes close. The Samsung NX and Panasonic G-1 and GH-1 fail miserably.

I'll lay odds that most people who complain bitterly about mirrorless cameras were the same people who said 10 years ago, that DSLRs would NOT displace the majority of film SLRs..... and that those same people have never even TOUCHED a mirrorless camera, let alone taken one out for a day's shooting!!!

I have no particular bias towards or away from any particular brand of camera... and I have quite a few different DSLRs & mirrorless cameras, each used at the appropriate time. I don't see any need to get so very agitated about a particular brand or format....

(and the GH1 is a brilliant camera!! :P )
09-18-2010, 06:09 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
Anyway, like I said, I completely amused by how upset some folks get about whole mirrorless camera subject. I'm just not understanding where the rancor comes from. .

The baffling rancour is agains mirrors. This is very hard to understand. I don't find that mirrors hinders my photographic endevours in any way. I don't see why removing it, and the optical finder, is solving any photographic problems. It does make it possible to make cheaper cameras but DSLR's aren't bought by people who are on the tightest budgets anyway. The electronic finder is already present in most DSLR's anyway and there are almost unlimited ways to enhance this. An optical viewfinder will be prerequsite for serious cameras for years to come simply because it is the most important thing for serious photography. Serious photographers use the finder as compositional tool. For this nothing beats the real thing. EVIL's are about removing an extraordinarily important feature; the optical viewfinder. EVIL's are P&S with interchangeable lenses.
09-18-2010, 06:20 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Not sure why you keep repeating this.
Even Canon realizes that DSLR and Mirrorless are going after the same users; and that's why they stated they would make a "compact DSLR" to combat the mirrorless.
I keep repeating this because it is a fact. If P&S had been bundled with DSLR's for statistical purposes the data would have showed and tremedous loss of share of DSLR's to P&S. Concluding that DSLR are doomed from such data is folly. EVIL's are no more DSLR's than P&S's.
The fact is that DSLR's are continue to increase in sales volume in spite of EVIL's and in spite of the fact that DSLR sales was expected to saturate and flatten out and even sink several years ago. It is clear that people buy DSLR's from other criterias that they buy EVIL's from, and if EVIL's are eroding any sales it is most likely from upper end P&S.
The fact that Canon apparently want to steal EVIL customers with a DSLR doesn't change this fact.

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 09-18-2010 at 08:30 AM.
09-18-2010, 06:24 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
The baffling rancour is agains mirrors. This is very hard to understand. I don't find that mirrors hinders my photographic endevours in any way. I don't see why removing it, and the optical finder, is solving any photographic problems. It does make it possible to make cheaper cameras but DSLR's aren't bought by people who are on the tightest budgets anyway. The electronic finder is already present in most DSLR's anyway and there are almost unlimited ways to enhance this. An optical viewfinder will be prerequsite for serious cameras for years to come simply because it is the most important thing for serious photography. Serious photographers use the finder as compositional tool. For this nothing beats the real thing. EVIL's are about removing an extraordinarily important feature; the optical viewfinder. EVIL's are P&S with interchangeable lenses.
Well, then just don't buy one. Seriously!
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