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09-18-2010, 10:57 PM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Have you ever tried using an EVF like in the Panasonic G2 or Olympus EV-2 accessory finder? If those are bad view finders then how do you classify every single pentamirror ever made? Because I'd take the EVF in a Panasonic GH1 over a Nikon D5000 OVF any day of the week. OVF's like the K7 has are acceptable, but they are still really tiny. To me they're no more usable than a good EVF. Now if you want to talk about a good OVF like in a Sony A900, well, then that's a different story. Unfortunately there are only two cameras on the market at the moment with OVF's of that quality (not counting medium format), the aforementioned A900 as well as the Canon 1Ds, and both of those are just a touch large to use for street photography....which is were EVIL's excel at and why I prefer them.

I really don't understand the hostility towards EVIL's. I've never read anyone say companies should stop making DSLR's, but DSLR users almost seem offended that someone could possibly choose and prefer another type of camera.
Having tested the EVF's on the new Samsung NX, Panasonic GH1 etc I have concluded they are total crap and after minutes of using them I have a headache.

It feels like i'm looking at a magnified LCD rather than an actual viewfinder, feels like a major step backwards from using a real OVF.

09-18-2010, 11:01 PM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christopher M.W.T Quote
Having tested the EVF's on the new Samsung NX, Panasonic GH1 etc I have concluded they are total crap and after minutes of using them I have a headache.

It feels like i'm looking at a magnified LCD rather than an actual viewfinder, feels like a major step backwards from using a real OVF.
Basically, that is what an EVF is.
09-18-2010, 11:10 PM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Basically, that is what an EVF is.
True, but it feels like a major step backwards.

I can see the advantages on paper but in real world application it feels very much inferior.

As I said I find the colour tearing to be unbearable and they just cause far too much eye strain, also the lag is rather annoying.

I have no doubt the tech will get better, but at this stage it feels far too sub standard for anyone who's half serious about photography.
09-18-2010, 11:17 PM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christopher M.W.T Quote
True, but it feels like a major step backwards.

I can see the advantages on paper but in real world application it feels very much inferior.

As I said I find the colour tearing to be unbearable and they just cause far too much eye strain, also the lag is rather annoying.

I have no doubt the tech will get better, but at this stage it feels far too sub standard for anyone who's half serious about photography.

Exactly the opposite for me.... If you're in a darkish camera shop, there is lag because it's not bright. Eye strain? Not for me, but you need to adjust the diopter, as with an viewfinder.

Have you ACTUALLY taken it for a day shooting?

09-18-2010, 11:19 PM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christopher M.W.T Quote
True, but it feels like a major step backwards.

I can see the advantages on paper but in real world application it feels very much inferior.

As I said I find the colour tearing to be unbearable and they just cause far too much eye strain, also the lag is rather annoying.

I have no doubt the tech will get better, but at this stage it feels far too sub standard for anyone who's half serious about photography.
Hmmm, yes, now I am remembering these perennial criticisms. I have to say that I am still very attracted to the concept though, I would like to judge the worth of an EVF myself, but that's not the kinda' thing you can just walk into any old electronics store and try out (like you can with a Canon T2i)
09-18-2010, 11:22 PM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
Eye strain? Not for me, but you need to adjust the diopter, as with an viewfinder.
Um, I'm willing to bet that there are a whole helluva lot of us visually-impaired out here for whom the diopter adjustment is worthless - many are way out of range of what any VF adjustment can provide.
09-19-2010, 06:58 AM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christopher M.W.T Quote
Having tested the EVF's on the new Samsung NX, Panasonic GH1 etc I have concluded they are total crap and after minutes of using them I have a headache.
Did the camera shop you test in happen to have florescent lights flickering overhead? Store lighting can really play havoc on them. Fortunately for me I never shoot under flickering florescent lights; and if for some reason I do need to I'd just use the rear LCD/live view in that situation. So no biggie.

You won't get an argument from me that at their best OVF's are better than EVF's, but the sad truth is OVF's took a nose dive with the advent of auto focus and they've yet to recover. The OVF in a Pentax LX or Olympus OM are better than anything available in the digital world, and both of those cameras are smaller than a Pentax K-7.

On top of that I honestly prever the EVF in a GH1 over the vast majority of APS-C DSLR's and EVF's are just getting started. The rumor is the GH2 is going to have na even higher resolution and even faster refresh rate. They are just going to keep getting better and better. So while they may not be perfect now I truly believe they will be the best solution in the coming years. Just seeing true DOF preview/bokeh is enough for me to put up with their current shortcomings.
09-19-2010, 07:11 AM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Did the camera shop you test in happen to have florescent lights flickering overhead? Store lighting can really play havoc on them. Fortunately for me I never shoot under flickering florescent lights; and if for some reason I do need to I'd just use the rear LCD/live view in that situation. So no biggie.

You won't get an argument from me that at their best OVF's are better than EVF's, but the sad truth is OVF's took a nose dive with the advent of auto focus and they've yet to recover. The OVF in a Pentax LX or Olympus OM are better than anything available in the digital world, and both of those cameras are smaller than a Pentax K-7.

On top of that I honestly prever the EVF in a GH1 over the vast majority of APS-C DSLR's and EVF's are just getting started. The rumor is the GH2 is going to have na even higher resolution and even faster refresh rate. They are just going to keep getting better and better. So while they may not be perfect now I truly believe they will be the best solution in the coming years. Just seeing true DOF preview/bokeh is enough for me to put up with their current shortcomings.

I'm with you on this one Art. I absolutely love the VF-2 on the E-P2. I'm waiting to see if Olympus does and E-P3. If not I'll probably go with the new Panasonic m 4/3 when it's released. I just wish it had the shake reduction in body. I already have the Panasonic 20mm, 7-14mm, and 45mm macro so I guess it's not that relevant anyway.

That said, I find the Olympus 9-18 and 17mm equal to the Panasonic lenses. I really like the Olympus 17mm and generally for wide angle use the Olympus 9-18mm.

Panasonic is coming out with a 14mm and a 25mm. The one lens I'm really interested is the Voigtlander 25mm F.095. I'm not sure when that is going to be released though.

09-19-2010, 07:25 AM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
The baffling rancour is agains mirrors. This is very hard to understand. I don't find that mirrors hinders my photographic endevours in any way. I don't see why removing it, and the optical finder, is solving any photographic problems.
Nor do I, especially when:

* The replacement idea is more complicated, more expensive, more delicate, and draws more power than an equivalent mirror/prism setup.
* The weight and bulk reductions are negligible.
* Removing the mirror and the shutter exposes the sensor to dust.

QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
Well, then just don't buy one. Seriously!
I think he's already doing that. But, fair's fair: how about all those saying how great EVILs are buy one from one Panasonic, Oly or Samsung?

I'd love a compact, interchangeable-lens camera with a large sensor...and an optical viewfinder with full readout.

And before someone asks, no, I don't giving a flying fornicate if you can't use zooms on it, or ridiculous telephotos. That's what DSLRs are for.
09-19-2010, 07:27 AM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christopher M.W.T Quote
...they just cause far too much eye strain, also the lag is rather annoying.
I agree that they tend to have real problems in the stores at present. The 'entry level' G2 in particular I found unfit after a matter of seconds. But then I get migraines and (as such?) I'm susceptible to eye strain.

QuoteOriginally posted by Christopher M.W.T Quote
I have no doubt the tech will get better, but at this stage it feels far too sub standard for anyone who's half serious about photography.
I only agree with the first half of this statement. I've seen a vastly superior viewfinder demo from Ricoh and would be entirely happy to use one. I'm not a sports photog or shooting BIF. In fact I frequently use a worn out 40-year-old rangefinder viewfinder with half the image obscured by an oversize lens hood. The yellow ghost image is so faint that only one of my friends can even see it.

It's the fun format of the rangefinder-size bodies that matters to me. The current higher-spec EVF's are already good enough for many users, and much improved EVF's are just around the corner.

QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
The OVF in a Pentax LX or Olympus OM are better than anything available in the digital world, and both of those cameras are smaller than a Pentax K-7.
That's for sure. I'll take the rear LCD of a five year old 6MP point and shoot over an APS-C pentamirror OVF or 4/3 SLR viewfinder (e.g. e-620).

(sorry for trying to argue both sides of this one, I guess I could summarize by saying "I'm waiting keenly.")
09-19-2010, 08:45 AM   #101
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Well, all I can say is that Oly's VF-2 has been a joy to work with for me. For the record, it does NOT share the color-tearing issue with the GH1/G1, etc. As far as gain-related noise and a slower refresh rate in low light is concerned, it's all a matter of personal taste. An OVF simply gets dark. Make your choice.

But I can sympathize with those who say they experience headaches or eye strain with EVFs. That's a personal thing and I suspect that issue will be taken care of with future generations of the technology. And it is also true that only the best EVFs currently on the market need apply. The G10's EVF is good for framing in emergency situations and little else.

But as uccemebug says, the fun factor that comes with using rangefinder-sized bodies is a big factor for me. Just borrow or rent an EPL-1 with the VF-2 and you'll see what I mean. Certainly these cameras don't replace DSLRs (at least not yet), but for half of my shooting they work just fine and I'm having a blast. And they're only going to get better. Thank God, because most of us will never be able to afford Leicas. I'm looking forward to a built-in EVF from Oly or Panasonic in a body the size of an E-P2 or GF-1. But I'll still have a Pentax DSLR as well.
09-19-2010, 08:48 AM   #102
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Hope Pentax will show EVIL prototype at Photokina 2010.
09-19-2010, 03:50 PM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
* The weight and bulk reductions are negligible.
* Removing the mirror and the shutter exposes the sensor to dust.
That's worse case scenario. Really, take a K-x, go to the store and get a GF1 with the 20mm prime mounted, and tell me that one isn't more pocketable than the other. And really, you can make the same argument about any interchangably lens camera, otherwise there wouldn't be a million sensor cleaning gadgets for DSLRs.
QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
But, fair's fair: how about all those saying how great EVILs are buy one from one Panasonic, Oly or Samsung?
In all likelihood I will (wait for it...). But I'd prefer to run a Pentax only system, and use glass I already own. If I need to invest in another complete system, I may as well leave totally.

Anyway if Pentax doesn't announce something amazing, it's a moot point for me. I'd like the lens a little narrower, and in all black, but this is so much like my dreams, it's like they were reading my diary.
09-19-2010, 04:01 PM   #104
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Well, the bar has just been raised a bit for mirrorless digital rangefinders... and the viewfinder solution may please both the OVF and EVF camps:

Fujifilm unveils FinePix X100 large-sensor compact: Digital Photography Review

No price mentioned... but who needs a Leica X1 anymore? More importantly, perhaps the viewfinder solution will make it into more rangefinder-type camera bodies.
09-19-2010, 04:07 PM   #105
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Holy crap, that Fuji is gorgeous.
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