Pentax mirrorless/Evil system rumors!?

Fogel70 · 10-08-2010, 05:53 AM

Originally posted by dnas

It - would - not - be - micro 4/3

This is why they smart electronics MUST be in the adapter.

This is why Pentax never will be joining MFT.

Pentax want to design cameras in their own philosophy, not following what others have done.

dnas · 10-08-2010, 06:00 AM

Originally posted by Fogel70

This is why Pentax never will be joining MFT.

Pentax want to design cameras in their own philosophy, not following what others have done.

Then they will lose market share with a unique mount.

Fogel70 · 10-08-2010, 06:25 AM

Not necessarily, they will be taking a bigger risk. But they could also gain more if the come up with a unique and improved product that can get bigger market share they would get with MFT.
With MFT Panasonic would pretty much control what Pentax can do, and Pentax and Olympus would have to fight over the "leftovers" that Panasonic is not interested in.

dnas · 10-08-2010, 07:00 AM

Originally posted by Fogel70

This is why Pentax never will be joining MFT.

Pentax want to design cameras in their own philosophy, not following what others have done.

Not necessarily, they will be taking a bigger risk. But they could also gain more if they use MFT that can get bigger market share, than they would get with coming up with a unique product.

Art Vandelay II · 10-08-2010, 07:36 AM

It seems like a safe assumption that they will use an APS-C sensor. Since they don't engineer their own sensors they don't have much of a choice do they? I can see pro's to joining m4/3's, but there are also plenty of cons. Olympus is similar to Pentax in many ways, so to me I don't really know what Pentax could add to that system down the road. Especially after Olympus starts releasing weather sealed bodies.

So I'd just as soon they do their own unique thing. I'd like to see something very similar to the mock up at the start of this thread; APS-C or larger sensor, compact rangefinder-like body, weather sealed, then make a range of WR limited primes for it focusing on Leica's target audience. Of course in my ideal world they'd use a 1x crop sensor with a 4x3 ratio; that won't happen, but I can dream

eurostar · 10-08-2010, 10:24 PM

What would be a "1x crop sensor with a 4:3 ratio"? A 36x27 sensor, a 32x24 sensor, or a 4:3 sensor with 43 mm of diagonal?

Pentaxor · 10-09-2010, 02:11 AM

many of you guys seem to be fixated on the m4/3. how bout the Foveon instead? I know that the Sigma is not the best in terms AF performance, and others. and also it is not mirrorless/EVIL yet. but what if Sigma decides to produce one with their SD1 type sensor , will this be a better alternative as opposed to the m4/3s? if Pentax makes an m4/3 system, there is a huge possibility that it would get eaten up by the bigger sensor cameras.

Fogel70 · 10-09-2010, 07:11 AM

Sigma Foveon sensor is interesting, but I'm not sure I would like to have it in a small general purpose EVIL camera. Foveon sensor usually has bad high ISO performance and I doubt they do HD video.
But on a specialized studio/landscape camera the Foveon sensor would be ideal. Sigma SD1 seems to be like a APS-C version of a medium format camera.

lithos · 10-09-2010, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by dnas

Not necessarily, they will be taking a bigger risk. But they could also gain more if they use MFT that can get bigger market share, than they would get with coming up with a unique product.

There are apparently a fair few caveats that come with signing your soul over to MFT. And MFT ain't telling what those caveats are.

Pentaxor · 10-09-2010, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Fogel70

Sigma Foveon sensor is interesting, but I'm not sure I would like to have it in a small general purpose EVIL camera. Foveon sensor usually has bad high ISO performance and I doubt they do HD video.
But on a specialized studio/landscape camera the Foveon sensor would be ideal. Sigma SD1 seems to be like a APS-C version of a medium format camera.

that is the only concern about it (High ISO) and I hope they solve it or did a compromise or a backdoor job. I couldn't care much for not having video of sorts but if Sigma is able to do an X100 trick, that will be a big bonus.

I think of this possibility since it does look like a compact size (APS-C) version of an MF camera, thus smaller as you say. for sure, the SD1 is also one of the products to watch out for next year. the X100 I think had already established a niche and a strong following, even if it hasn't been released yet and have to wait for 6 months for it to come out.

honestly, I haven't seen a camera before the x100 that has received much praise even before it got out or demo'd properly. this is probably because it is somehow a photographer's dream camera.

glanglois · 10-09-2010, 11:50 AM

APS-C with Sony sensors and Sony E mount. Effective K to E mount adapter.

Pentax acts as second (or primary) source for E mount glass, particularly primes.

Combined volume (Pentax and Sony) for e mount makes it profitable for third party lens makers.

Sony, with its broad reach and name recognition, targets general consumer market as well as its installed base. Pentax targets photography-oriented/enthusiast market and its own installed base (probably subset of first). There is always overlap, as there should be.

Sony and Pentax are in a better position to take on Olympus and Panasonic and MFT.

Pure speculation - based entirely on a bit of thinking. No idea if it's possible but it makes sense, at least to me.

Art Vandelay II · 10-09-2010, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by eurostar

What would be a "1x crop sensor with a 4:3 ratio"? A 36x27 sensor, a 32x24 sensor, or a 4:3 sensor with 43 mm of diagonal?

I don't know what the exact sensor measurements would be, but my guess would be something like 32x25mm. Something like 26x20mm's would also be a good size even though it would have a 1.3x crop or so. I just prefer shooting with a 4x3 ratio. It's far better for portraits and it's very close to 8x10 and 11x14...which are the two most common sizes I print. I really don't understand why everyone aside from 4/3's decided to keep the 2x3 ratio with their DSLR's. Both small sensors and medium format (including the 645D) use 3x4. It's just a far better ratio IMHO; especially if you shoot vertical.

stanleyk · 10-09-2010, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by lithos

There are apparently a fair few caveats that come with signing your soul over to MFT. And MFT ain't telling what those caveats are.

I've seen some hyperbole on this site, but this is a bit over the top. It's just a camera and somehow I don't think one's eternal soul is going to enter into the picture no matter how you want to frame it......

Or you could just do what a lot of people do and have a MFT camera and an ASPC camera. And....all those Pentax SMC M lenses will work on an Olympus Pen without having to mess with that stupid green button.

dnas · 10-09-2010, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by lithos

There are apparently a fair few caveats that come with signing your soul over to MFT. And MFT ain't telling what those caveats are.

Originally posted by stanleyk

I've seen some hyperbole on this site, but this is a bit over the top. It's just a camera and somehow I don't think one's eternal soul is going to enter into the picture no matter how you want to frame it......

Or you could just do what a lot of people do and have a MFT camera and an ASPC camera. And....all those Pentax SMC M lenses will work on an Olympus Pen without having to mess with that stupid green button.

Exactly....

Why bother to hide anything???
Next people will be saying that JFK used a micro 4/3 camera....

Kunzite · 10-10-2010, 04:38 AM

Originally posted by glanglois

Sony and Pentax are in a better position to take on Olympus and Panasonic and MFT.

But since when is Sony willing to work with partners? I.e. not a temporary collaboration, then kill them so they'll remain in control

Both paths are, IMO, dangerous. Sony likes to push their own way through marketing, crushing - if possible - everything on their path; they don't need partners. And MFT... there are (at least) two huge problems:
- Pentax will have to play Panalympus's game, simultaneously trying to enter the MFT arena and competing by price - a losing proposition, I'd say (I'm also sure Panalympus wouldn't like to share on the MFT's success). Few truly excellent (and thus, quite expensive) lenses wouldn't help much.
- this will give us, K-mount users, the worst possible message: "abandon ship!"

I'm quite sure Pentax will chose neither. They should build their own way, not giving up and joining the competition; and I'll support them, as their customer.
I'd still have the reflex viewfinder, though.

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10-08-2010, 05:53 AM	#256
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by dnas It - would - not - be - micro 4/3 This is why they smart electronics MUST be in the adapter. This is why Pentax never will be joining MFT. Pentax want to design cameras in their own philosophy, not following what others have done.

10-08-2010, 06:00 AM	#257
dnas Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Japan (Australian expat) Posts: 179	Originally posted by Fogel70 This is why Pentax never will be joining MFT. Pentax want to design cameras in their own philosophy, not following what others have done. Then they will lose market share with a unique mount.

10-08-2010, 06:25 AM	#258
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Not necessarily, they will be taking a bigger risk. But they could also gain more if the come up with a unique and improved product that can get bigger market share they would get with MFT. With MFT Panasonic would pretty much control what Pentax can do, and Pentax and Olympus would have to fight over the "leftovers" that Panasonic is not interested in.

10-08-2010, 07:00 AM	#259
dnas Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Japan (Australian expat) Posts: 179	Originally posted by Fogel70 This is why Pentax never will be joining MFT. Pentax want to design cameras in their own philosophy, not following what others have done. Not necessarily, they will be taking a bigger risk. But they could also gain more if they use MFT that can get bigger market share, than they would get with coming up with a unique product.

10-08-2010, 07:36 AM	#260
Art Vandelay II Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Photos: Gallery Posts: 886	It seems like a safe assumption that they will use an APS-C sensor. Since they don't engineer their own sensors they don't have much of a choice do they? I can see pro's to joining m4/3's, but there are also plenty of cons. Olympus is similar to Pentax in many ways, so to me I don't really know what Pentax could add to that system down the road. Especially after Olympus starts releasing weather sealed bodies. So I'd just as soon they do their own unique thing. I'd like to see something very similar to the mock up at the start of this thread; APS-C or larger sensor, compact rangefinder-like body, weather sealed, then make a range of WR limited primes for it focusing on Leica's target audience. Of course in my ideal world they'd use a 1x crop sensor with a 4x3 ratio; that won't happen, but I can dream

10-08-2010, 10:24 PM	#261
eurostar Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Albareto, Italy Photos: Gallery Posts: 819	What would be a "1x crop sensor with a 4:3 ratio"? A 36x27 sensor, a 32x24 sensor, or a 4:3 sensor with 43 mm of diagonal?

10-09-2010, 02:11 AM	#262
Pentaxor Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,513	many of you guys seem to be fixated on the m4/3. how bout the Foveon instead? I know that the Sigma is not the best in terms AF performance, and others. and also it is not mirrorless/EVIL yet. but what if Sigma decides to produce one with their SD1 type sensor , will this be a better alternative as opposed to the m4/3s? if Pentax makes an m4/3 system, there is a huge possibility that it would get eaten up by the bigger sensor cameras.

10-09-2010, 07:11 AM	#263
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Sigma Foveon sensor is interesting, but I'm not sure I would like to have it in a small general purpose EVIL camera. Foveon sensor usually has bad high ISO performance and I doubt they do HD video. But on a specialized studio/landscape camera the Foveon sensor would be ideal. Sigma SD1 seems to be like a APS-C version of a medium format camera.

10-09-2010, 08:32 AM	#264
lithos Inactive Account Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Brisbane, QLD, AUS Posts: 3,261	Originally posted by dnas Not necessarily, they will be taking a bigger risk. But they could also gain more if they use MFT that can get bigger market share, than they would get with coming up with a unique product. There are apparently a fair few caveats that come with signing your soul over to MFT. And MFT ain't telling what those caveats are.

10-09-2010, 10:49 AM	#265
Pentaxor Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,513	Originally posted by Fogel70 Sigma Foveon sensor is interesting, but I'm not sure I would like to have it in a small general purpose EVIL camera. Foveon sensor usually has bad high ISO performance and I doubt they do HD video. But on a specialized studio/landscape camera the Foveon sensor would be ideal. Sigma SD1 seems to be like a APS-C version of a medium format camera. that is the only concern about it (High ISO) and I hope they solve it or did a compromise or a backdoor job. I couldn't care much for not having video of sorts but if Sigma is able to do an X100 trick, that will be a big bonus. I think of this possibility since it does look like a compact size (APS-C) version of an MF camera, thus smaller as you say. for sure, the SD1 is also one of the products to watch out for next year. the X100 I think had already established a niche and a strong following, even if it hasn't been released yet and have to wait for 6 months for it to come out. honestly, I haven't seen a camera before the x100 that has received much praise even before it got out or demo'd properly. this is probably because it is somehow a photographer's dream camera.

10-09-2010, 11:50 AM	#266
glanglois Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Madison, Wis., USA Posts: 1,506	APS-C with Sony sensors and Sony E mount. Effective K to E mount adapter. Pentax acts as second (or primary) source for E mount glass, particularly primes. Combined volume (Pentax and Sony) for e mount makes it profitable for third party lens makers. Sony, with its broad reach and name recognition, targets general consumer market as well as its installed base. Pentax targets photography-oriented/enthusiast market and its own installed base (probably subset of first). There is always overlap, as there should be. Sony and Pentax are in a better position to take on Olympus and Panasonic and MFT. Pure speculation - based entirely on a bit of thinking. No idea if it's possible but it makes sense, at least to me.

10-09-2010, 12:02 PM	#267
Art Vandelay II Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Photos: Gallery Posts: 886	Originally posted by eurostar What would be a "1x crop sensor with a 4:3 ratio"? A 36x27 sensor, a 32x24 sensor, or a 4:3 sensor with 43 mm of diagonal? I don't know what the exact sensor measurements would be, but my guess would be something like 32x25mm. Something like 26x20mm's would also be a good size even though it would have a 1.3x crop or so. I just prefer shooting with a 4x3 ratio. It's far better for portraits and it's very close to 8x10 and 11x14...which are the two most common sizes I print. I really don't understand why everyone aside from 4/3's decided to keep the 2x3 ratio with their DSLR's. Both small sensors and medium format (including the 645D) use 3x4. It's just a far better ratio IMHO; especially if you shoot vertical.

10-09-2010, 01:05 PM	#268
stanleyk Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Taylor, Texas Posts: 1,018	Originally posted by lithos There are apparently a fair few caveats that come with signing your soul over to MFT. And MFT ain't telling what those caveats are. I've seen some hyperbole on this site, but this is a bit over the top. It's just a camera and somehow I don't think one's eternal soul is going to enter into the picture no matter how you want to frame it...... Or you could just do what a lot of people do and have a MFT camera and an ASPC camera. And....all those Pentax SMC M lenses will work on an Olympus Pen without having to mess with that stupid green button.

10-09-2010, 05:53 PM	#269
dnas Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Japan (Australian expat) Posts: 179	Originally posted by lithos There are apparently a fair few caveats that come with signing your soul over to MFT. And MFT ain't telling what those caveats are. Originally posted by stanleyk I've seen some hyperbole on this site, but this is a bit over the top. It's just a camera and somehow I don't think one's eternal soul is going to enter into the picture no matter how you want to frame it...... Or you could just do what a lot of people do and have a MFT camera and an ASPC camera. And....all those Pentax SMC M lenses will work on an Olympus Pen without having to mess with that stupid green button. Exactly.... Why bother to hide anything??? Next people will be saying that JFK used a micro 4/3 camera....

10-10-2010, 04:38 AM	#270
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by glanglois Sony and Pentax are in a better position to take on Olympus and Panasonic and MFT. But since when is Sony willing to work with partners? I.e. not a temporary collaboration, then kill them so they'll remain in control Both paths are, IMO, dangerous. Sony likes to push their own way through marketing, crushing - if possible - everything on their path; they don't need partners. And MFT... there are (at least) two huge problems: - Pentax will have to play Panalympus's game, simultaneously trying to enter the MFT arena and competing by price - a losing proposition, I'd say (I'm also sure Panalympus wouldn't like to share on the MFT's success). Few truly excellent (and thus, quite expensive) lenses wouldn't help much. - this will give us, K-mount users, the worst possible message: "abandon ship!" I'm quite sure Pentax will chose neither. They should build their own way, not giving up and joining the competition; and I'll support them, as their customer. I'd still have the reflex viewfinder, though.