Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
08-07-2010, 05:17 PM   #136
Senior Member




Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Japan (Australian expat)
Posts: 166
QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
The 4/3 sensors are equivalent to 110 film. The 4/3 sensors have a diagonal of 21.6 compared to 28.4. Compared to 135 (24x36), that calculated to a factor of 2x compared to 1.53x and 1x for 135.
Look at the diagram. That's all anyone needs to know. If 4/3 is tiny, then so is APS-C.



08-07-2010, 05:29 PM   #137
Moderator
Site Supporter
Blue's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Florida Hill Country
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 17,166
QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
Look at the diagram. That's all anyone needs to know. If 4/3 is tiny, then so is APS-C.
By your logic, ff isn't much smaller than the 645. However, the math tells another story. 224.2 sq mm compared to 370.52. I have seen that diagram around for years. APS-C is smaller than 135. 4/3 is even smaller. The thing is this. Pentax can make a smaller slr. They have done it before. It used 110 film which is about the same size a 4/3. That G2 looks like a 6x6 next to a k20d next to it. However, sensor size is an issue with many people, and it is an important aspect for such a body to be competitive. If its cheap, it will compete with Pentax's bridge line. If its expensive, that will put it in the middle of the compact dSLR line.
08-07-2010, 06:49 PM   #138
Lens Buying Addict
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 19,439
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Citi is a preferred shareholder and creditor. They loan Hoya $$$, probably as part of the Yen carry trade, and partly as investment loans.
The preferred shares are a collateral hedge for Citi's Japanese-division Citi in Japan (Nikko-Cordial) loans to Hoya. Citi lends to anyone and everyone globally. There is nothing special about Hoya and there is no relationship between this Note and any global commercial bank loan - that is, in fact, illegal now.

Not to quibble because you make incisive, intelligent comments -

The Yen carry trade is where a bank or hedge fund borrows short-term in Yen, sells the Yen, buys a higher-yielding longer-term bond in some other currency and "carries" the spread (difference in yield). As long as the Yen-lender keeps rolling over the short-term loan the carry is profitable.

Quite a large part of the 2008 world liquidity crisis was caused by hedge funds and investment banks selling anything they could, in a panic, to fund Yen carry-trade loan calls when the Japanese lenders refused to roll the loans.

The hedge funds (and investment banks) were levered 30-1. That meant a 3% decline in the underlying investment wiped out 100% of their equity. Are we surprised Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers and AIG (and Fannie Mae and Feddie Mac) went under?

Today the USD is the currency in global carry transactions - at 0.55% per annum interest! All that dollar-selling is behind the persistent decline in the dollar versus most other currencies. Watch what happens if there is some "Black Swan" global event and there is a panic INTO the dollar!!
08-13-2010, 12:59 PM   #139
Senior Member
Mister Guy's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 244
QuoteOriginally posted by BRunner Quote
You saved me work :-) It's exactly what I mean.
Moreover, Pentax is known for doing things a little bit different. And lens compatibility between EVIL and DSLR bodies is exactly what will make the difference. It makes more sense than "me too" EVIL with new mount and complete line of lenses. Will it be smaller than NEX or PEN? Hardly... Can it bring better video than Panasonic or Sony EVILs? I don't think so... Will it be cheaper than Samsung NX or NEX? Maybe...
Where is then the reason for new customer (or old Pentaxian) to go with Pentax EVIL and not with product from the other players?
Completely agree, Pentax Enthusiasts generally have three answers for the question, "Why Pentax?" That's the critical question any company needs to solve. It would seriously blow my mind if Hoya believes the answers to the question "Why Pentax?" are significantly different, or SHOULD be significantly different, than the three answers you'll see most commonly:

1. Performance for price
2. Excellent legacy glass
3. That Pentax cameras have a certain "feel" and behavior that's extremely consistent between their film and digital lines

They took pride and made it public that their image quality settings (particularly noise reduction and saturation), the layout of their menus, how the dials look and feel, all that, for their digital lines had the absolute mandate to make it "feel" like their film cameras, to the point where people brought up on cartoony blobby Canon and Nikon point and shoot digitals think Pentax cameras are "dull" and have to be taught what dynamic range is for, and how to meter properly for the results they want.

I don't know if that's the "right" decision, but it's the decision that made me fall in love with my hand my down film Pentax right up until it was stolen, then in love with my 110D, right up until it was stolen, and then in love with my K20D and my K-7 (you know, until in the near future someone steals those, too).

It seems like such a limited subset of users who care the most about size, in either direction. We can't even get a decent consensus here over whether FF is important, or if EVIL is needed at all. If Pentax had more market share, they could fit all niches. Currently, they need to focus on their core, even if means losing people on the edges. It looks to me like they've correctly identified the K-7 and the K-m winners, so much so they quickly brought out the K-x to capitalize on the K-m's popularity, and hit it out of the park.

Now, I really, really hope they are following that up with an EVIL system I can buy for my girlfriend, and share lenses with her. I honestly believe that'd be more or less the goal of this camera. It seems to me that it's for people switching lenses, getting their first "real" camera, and as a companion camera for families with wives/husbands/children where a Pentax camera is already owned, and it'd be an excellent low space backup option for emergencies.

And hopefully I'll be able to get it for her in Carolina Blue, so she'll be happy.

Incidentally, protip for you guys out there: A K-7 with a FA 35mm fits EXCELLENTLY in a Coach purse, and giving her a Coach purse is an excellent way to get her to carry your camera in public.

08-13-2010, 03:54 PM   #140
Veteran Member
uccemebug's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 959
QuoteOriginally posted by Mister Guy Quote
Completely agree, Pentax Enthusiasts generally have three answers for the question, "Why Pentax?" That's the critical question any company needs to solve. It would seriously blow my mind if Hoya believes the answers to the question "Why Pentax?" are significantly different, or SHOULD be significantly different, than the three answers you'll see most commonly:

1. Performance for price
2. Excellent legacy glass
3. That Pentax cameras have a certain "feel" and behavior that's extremely consistent between their film and digital lines

They took pride and made it public that their image quality settings (particularly noise reduction and saturation), the layout of their menus, how the dials look and feel, all that, for their digital lines had the absolute mandate to make it "feel" like their film cameras, to the point where people brought up on cartoony blobby Canon and Nikon point and shoot digitals think Pentax cameras are "dull" and have to be taught what dynamic range is for, and how to meter properly for the results they want.

I don't know if that's the "right" decision, but it's the decision that made me fall in love with my hand my down film Pentax right up until it was stolen, then in love with my 110D, right up until it was stolen, and then in love with my K20D and my K-7 (you know, until in the near future someone steals those, too).

It seems like such a limited subset of users who care the most about size, in either direction. We can't even get a decent consensus here over whether FF is important, or if EVIL is needed at all. If Pentax had more market share, they could fit all niches. Currently, they need to focus on their core, even if means losing people on the edges. It looks to me like they've correctly identified the K-7 and the K-m winners, so much so they quickly brought out the K-x to capitalize on the K-m's popularity, and hit it out of the park.

Now, I really, really hope they are following that up with an EVIL system I can buy for my girlfriend, and share lenses with her. I honestly believe that'd be more or less the goal of this camera. It seems to me that it's for people switching lenses, getting their first "real" camera, and as a companion camera for families with wives/husbands/children where a Pentax camera is already owned, and it'd be an excellent low space backup option for emergencies.

And hopefully I'll be able to get it for her in Carolina Blue, so she'll be happy.

Incidentally, protip for you guys out there: A K-7 with a FA 35mm fits EXCELLENTLY in a Coach purse, and giving her a Coach purse is an excellent way to get her to carry your camera in public.
Outstanding post. It must be love (and a three-way at that).
08-13-2010, 04:38 PM   #141
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,790
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The preferred shares are a collateral hedge for Citi's Japanese-division Citi in Japan (Nikko-Cordial) loans to Hoya. Citi lends to anyone and everyone globally. There is nothing special about Hoya and there is no relationship between this Note and any global commercial bank loan - that is, in fact, illegal now.

Not to quibble because you make incisive, intelligent comments -

The Yen carry trade is where a bank or hedge fund borrows short-term in Yen, sells the Yen, buys a higher-yielding longer-term bond in some other currency and "carries" the spread (difference in yield). As long as the Yen-lender keeps rolling over the short-term loan the carry is profitable.

Quite a large part of the 2008 world liquidity crisis was caused by hedge funds and investment banks selling anything they could, in a panic, to fund Yen carry-trade loan calls when the Japanese lenders refused to roll the loans.

The hedge funds (and investment banks) were levered 30-1. That meant a 3% decline in the underlying investment wiped out 100% of their equity. Are we surprised Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers and AIG (and Fannie Mae and Feddie Mac) went under?

Today the USD is the currency in global carry transactions - at 0.55% per annum interest! All that dollar-selling is behind the persistent decline in the dollar versus most other currencies. Watch what happens if there is some "Black Swan" global event and there is a panic INTO the dollar!!
Thanks for the clarification about Hoya and Citi.

The unravelling of the Yen carry trade has been a problem for Japanese companies that I can see because they were boosting their bottom line (and avoiding some tax consequences) through it. The flow is going to the US now. That was quite a shift from 20 years of playing the Yen. No rollover, ouch! Missed that piece of the puzzle. It says something about zombies in Japanese banking infecting US shopping malls!

Following the liquidity and credit crisis meant I got a brand new FA 50/1.4 for C$120 as everyone was dumping inventory. I got my K200D and entered the Pentax world precisely because there was a major sell-off with prices in $CAN about 40% below today and over the 5 years norm. Nikon would have had my biz but they tried to stick it out for 2 extra weeks. I was actually spreadsheet tracking the price declines in the DSLR market.

It wasn't just a balance sheet de-leverage, actual product value in inventory was deflating overnight. We talk about deflation as if it *might* happen. It did. Still is in housing. Maybe an inflationary pump into the US$ would be a good thing, although that black swan event probably won't have anything to do with cameras, unless they are made in Iran or North Korea

I would think that if there was a black swan into the $US, China would take that as a chance to sell some T's, balancing the market, but also, effectively, being the world's Fed in doing so. Scary.
08-14-2010, 08:42 AM   #142
ogl
Pentaxian
ogl's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Siberia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 7,112
QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
By your logic, ff isn't much smaller than the 645. However, the math tells another story. 224.2 sq mm compared to 370.52.

24*36=864 mm2
33*44=1452 mm2
36*48=1728 mm2

Full 645=41.5*56=2324 mm2
08-14-2010, 09:39 AM   #143
Moderator
Site Supporter
Blue's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Florida Hill Country
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 17,166
QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
24*36=864 mm2
33*44=1452 mm2
36*48=1728 mm2

Full 645=41.5*56=2324 mm2
Ogl, those numbers I posted were comparing 4/3 and Pentax aps-c. Based on my calculations, 4/3 sensors have about 60% of the area the APS-C and your calculations shows that the ff has about 60% of the area of the 33x44 sensor.

08-14-2010, 04:37 PM   #144
Senior Member




Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Japan (Australian expat)
Posts: 166
QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Ogl, those numbers I posted were comparing 4/3 and Pentax aps-c. Based on my calculations, 4/3 sensors have about 60% of the area the APS-C and your calculations shows that the ff has about 60% of the area of the 33x44 sensor.
You said: "4/3 sensors are TINY"

They are not tiny.

I originally said: "In fact they are closer in size to APS-C than APS-C is to FF."

APS-C sensors(Nikon) have 43% of the area of FF.

APS-C sensors(Canon) have 38.5% of the area of FF.

4/3 sensors have 28% of the area of FF.



And 4/3 sensors compared to APS-C are actually:

65% of the size of APS-C (Nikon)
73% of the size of APS-C (Canon)



If you want to REALLY say a sensor is TINY, compare it with the "large" P&S sensor of the Canon G11:

7.6x5.7 = 43.32mm2

That's 5% the size of FF, 12% the size of Nikon APS-C, 13% the size of Canon APS-C, and 18% the size of 4/3.
08-14-2010, 05:27 PM   #145
Moderator
Site Supporter
Blue's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Florida Hill Country
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 17,166
QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
You said: "4/3 sensors are TINY"

They are not tiny.

I originally said: "In fact they are closer in size to APS-C than APS-C is to FF."

APS-C sensors(Nikon) have 43% of the area of FF.

APS-C sensors(Canon) have 38.5% of the area of FF.

4/3 sensors have 28% of the area of FF.



And 4/3 sensors compared to APS-C are actually:

65% of the size of APS-C (Nikon)
73% of the size of APS-C (Canon)



If you want to REALLY say a sensor is TINY, compare it with the "large" P&S sensor of the Canon G11:

7.6x5.7 = 43.32mm2

That's 5% the size of FF, 12% the size of Nikon APS-C, 13% the size of Canon APS-C, and 18% the size of 4/3.
Tiny is a qualitative term. That's why I went back and posted the numbers.

Why did you use everything but a Pentax sensor?


The Pentax sensor is 15.7mm x 23.6 mm = 370.52 compared to the 224.2 of the 110 sized 4.3 sensor. 224.2/370.52 = 60.51% which is about the difference in comparison of ff to the 645D sensor (59.1%). ~ 39.5% smaller is substantially smaller. Are the canon and Nikon ff guys going to start saying that the 645D isn't much bigger than their ff bodies?


That said, 24 x36 is tiny compared to 6 x4.5 and even tinier compared to 6 x 7.

I find it interesting that Panasonic's G10 has the dimensions

Lumix G10 124 x 83.6 x 74mm (excluding protrusions) & 538 g with 14-42 lens and battery

Pentax K-x 122.5 x 91.5 x 67.5 & 791 grams with 18-55 DA L lens & battery

They had to market this 4/3 body as the lightest interchangeable lens camera with a viewfinder on the market. Its physically bigger than the Samsung NX-10 and has a smaller sensor. However, the G10 may turn out to be quite good regarding its video.

I am not going to get into the size comparison of the Pentax APS-c to ff. There are at least 100 threads on this forum about the subject. Your not going to convince me that the 4/3 sensors are nearly as large as the aps-c anymore than you are going to convince me that aps-c is nearly as big as ff or that ff is nearly as big as the 645d. Maybe you can convince Falk or Pl or some of those guys that 4/3 is nearly as big. :Hysterical:

Edit: The G11 sensor is itsy bitsy.

Last edited by Blue; 08-14-2010 at 05:44 PM.
08-14-2010, 07:28 PM   #146
Veteran Member
ManuH's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,209
4/3 is not as tiny as it seems, the height is very close to APS-C. It's because the right and left borders are cropped that the area is much smaller than APS-C. For mirrorless cameras I think it's a good compromise and remove the disadvantage the fourd thirds DSLR had: tunnel OVF.
08-15-2010, 03:44 AM   #147
Senior Member




Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Japan (Australian expat)
Posts: 166
QuoteOriginally posted by manuh Quote
4/3 is not as tiny as it seems, the height is very close to aps-c. It's because the right and left borders are cropped that the area is much smaller than aps-c. For mirrorless cameras i think it's a good compromise and remove the disadvantage the fourd thirds dslr had: Tunnel ovf.
exactly!!!!!!!
08-15-2010, 05:15 AM   #148
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Israel
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 943
To be totally honest, I confused Olympus Pen with Panasonic GF-1 when they were coming out and after being disappointed with Oly Pen, I bought K-7 and gave my daughter K10D to use. In hindsight, since she was 8 years old at the time, I should've bought her Pana GF-1 and that pancake 20 mm lens. Ergonomically it would have been so much better than K10D that is so big and cumbersome for her small hands.

However, once again I went to pbase and looked at the samples of GF-1. I was rather underwhelmed.

In fact, if you happen to know good real use samples of Pana GF-1 with 20 mm lens I'd appreciate the links (even in PM).
08-16-2010, 01:02 AM   #149
Junior Member




Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 43
Anyone seen this yet:

Google Traduttore
08-16-2010, 01:35 AM   #150
Pentaxian
Fogel70's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,737
QuoteOriginally posted by john_ven24 Quote
Anyone seen this yet:
Not good as they seems to be using Adams concept pictures trying to make them look like real news.
Even worse if they use these pictures without permission.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/108902-pentax-mirrorle...em-rumors.html
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
document, hoya, mirrorless, pentax, pentax news, pentax rumors
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Likelihood of EVIL Pentax @ Photokina? lurchlarson Pentax DSLR Discussion 30 07-24-2010 12:09 AM
Pentax EVIL... Unsinkable II Pentax DSLR Discussion 24 03-16-2010 09:03 PM
Pentax Should Build an EVIL Camera Biro Pentax News and Rumors 308 02-08-2010 01:10 AM
Movie endings / plot twists you did not see comming .. daacon General Talk 32 09-30-2009 09:34 PM
Easter is comming!!! Easter is comming!!! Oldphoto678 Post Your Photos! 2 04-05-2009 10:18 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:55 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top