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08-05-2010, 01:55 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Whatever. I didn't remember the exact number, despite having used K-mount cameras for more than 30 years...

Anyway, I don't buy your argument. It's the THIN cameras that sell, like it or not.
Why bother with interchangeable lenses if thin is the goal? I don't get the whole interchangeable bridge in between P&S and dSLR. On the flip side there is the FF crowd thinking Pentax should send their 10 engineers to work on lens for that. You are saying they should send them to re-invent the wheel on a system smaller than aps-c. That doesn't even account for the 645D.

Short term rapid growth could be detrimental Long term sustainability. Plus, borrowing money to gamble can be catastrophic. I don't see Hoya opening themselves up to a hostile takeover to gamble on something called EVIL. Hysterical

Like I have said 2x before, an alternative would be a digital 110 system.

08-05-2010, 02:16 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
....We are talking 15mm in difference for the GH1 and a *istD size form. That gains you all the K-mount lenses ever made for use on it.....
....Further Notes: Take a look at the size of some of the slr film bodies
You saved me work :-) It's exactly what I mean.
Moreover, Pentax is known for doing things a little bit different. And lens compatibility between EVIL and DSLR bodies is exactly what will make the difference. It makes more sense than "me too" EVIL with new mount and complete line of lenses. Will it be smaller than NEX or PEN? Hardly... Can it bring better video than Panasonic or Sony EVILs? I don't think so... Will it be cheaper than Samsung NX or NEX? Maybe...
Where is then the reason for new customer (or old Pentaxian) to go with Pentax EVIL and not with product from the other players?

And maybe....maybe...they can drop the AF motor on the EVIL body and go with SDM lenses only.... But they should release something like full updated DA Limited II SDM line of lenses at the same time.

And for the size difference, here are four illustrative pictures. Without pentaprism the difference will be big enough. Even the NEX with kit zoom is not really pocketable.
Attached Images
View Picture EXIF
GX-1S  Photo 
View Picture EXIF
GX-1S  Photo 
View Picture EXIF
SAMSUNG GX20  Photo 
View Picture EXIF
SAMSUNG GX20  Photo 

Last edited by BRunner; 08-05-2010 at 02:48 PM. Reason: Trying to correct my bad english...:-/
08-05-2010, 02:19 PM   #78
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I guess it's not surprising that it's Sony that's showing how small an APS-C EVIL can be:



This is even with an articulating rear screen, which undoubtedly adds some depth. Interestingly, the Sony doesn't have in camera image stabilization - maybe those systems take up more space than we think.

Now imagine adding a K-mount adapter to a camera the size of the Sony - to get the required registration distance.

Now imagine mounting the DA40 pancake to that.

I think that you'd end up with a package that is pretty close in size to the current crop of M43 cams.



The Lilliputian size of the Sony actually raises a separate question for me...the package is only small when you mount pancake primes to them. Most of the world shoots zooms. When you see the Sony with a zoom attached, you realize that the zoom is now the bulk of the package, and the size benefits of EVIL over dSLRs are diminished somewhat. Not completely, because an EVIL + consumer zoom is still smaller than a K-x + consumer zoom.

Others here have openly questioned whether EVILs are an evolutionary dead-end. This zoom issue makes me wonder if they are right...

Whatever, I still want my Pentax EVIL WR!
08-05-2010, 02:28 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
The Lilliputian size of the Sony actually raises a separate question for me...the package is only small when you mount pancake primes to them. Most of the world shoots zooms. When you see the Sony with a zoom attached, you realize that the zoom is now the bulk of the package, and the size benefits of EVIL over dSLRs are diminished somewhat. Not completely, because an EVIL + consumer zoom is still smaller than a K-x + consumer zoom.
K-mount Pentax EVIL with zoom protruding in to the camera body will probably look more compact than NEX with atached zoom...

08-05-2010, 02:35 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Whatever. I didn't remember the exact number, despite having used K-mount cameras for more than 30 years...

Anyway, I don't buy your argument. It's the THIN cameras that sell, like it or not.
And normal cameras sell to

The new Evil genre is a welcome shange in the camera industry i believe. Its advatages are many. They will get DSLR quality packed in tiny bodies and small lenses.

We now have the option to choose. As pictured above, the sony can even have a very big lens attached to it, and some people will like having that oppurtunity.

IMO, and very personaly, my own experience will lead me to always by cameras that is comfortable holding and shooting with. IMO K-7 is the perfect designed camera, and its still a small camera. EVIL wont change that people think like me, and that said: We have more to choose from now and everything sells.

Cant imagine my self holding a Macro lens with a tiny EVIL attached to it's back trying to take a picture without handshake or getting aches in the hand..... For me, a good grip is everything!

Last edited by the swede; 08-05-2010 at 02:42 PM.
08-05-2010, 04:12 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by BRunner Quote
K-mount Pentax EVIL with zoom protruding in to the camera body will probably look more compact than NEX with atached zoom...

If it protrudes into the body, it is no longer a K mount, because it will not work with any older K mount body.
08-05-2010, 04:17 PM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
I don't think the size will be small enough compared to DSLR. The only difference in size compared to a DSLR is that the EVIL with K-mount do not need the prisma housing. If you want a EVF on your EVIL this difference in size is gone.

When the competitors has come with a few more lenses an EVIL with k-mount will only have disadvantages compared to the competition for the majority of EVIL camera buyers. After all the main reason why EVIL sell well is that you can get a big sensor camera in a small package.

Sooner or later Pentax has to make an EVIL with a new mount to keep up with the competitors, and the longer they wait the more they will lose on it. An EVIL with K-mount can at most only be a short term solution.
And that's why Pentax should have been in this market a while ago.

Pentax already makes lots of primes and pancakes. Pentax shooters like primes/pancakes. Panny/Oly/Sony/Samsung is stuck on the idea of a small cam as a step up for P&S users, so they sell the kits with zooms, which artificially makes them larger. Pentax can make a cam that's a step down/sideways for SLR shooters. A trimmed down K-x body - lose the prism, some of the grip depth, some of the LCD depth if possible - and it isn't tons larger than a GF1, especially with something like the DA 40mm mounted. Actually, give me a 28mm/1.4 pancake kit, and I'm good. And unlike every other miniature system, it offers a growth path.

You're right, sooner or later competitors will flesh out their lens lineups. But right now it would be a unique advantage. And down the road Pentax would still have an advantage in having a range of bodies, from EVIL to semi-pro DSLR, that share a common mount, full function with no adapters. That reinforces the value proposition of buying into Pentax. If you buy a m43/Nex/Samsung system you have to understand that there's a built-in upper limit to where you can go, before you need to invest in new glass/bodies. If you're Pentax you hammer that point to drive your EVIL and get new shooters invested in K mount glass. And if that works, invest the profits in R&D and a couple of years down the line, you introduce micro-K bodies/lenses, with the coupled K adapter.

The biggest asset of Pentax at this second is the installed base of K mount glass. They have to leverage that. Attempting a completely new, first gen camera and lens line (or at minimum something that didn't provide more interoperability with K mount lens than current adapters on the other mini-mounts) would be suicide.
08-05-2010, 04:43 PM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Take a look at these dimensions. I think Pentax could get it down to at least the dimensions of the *istD for a body along the lines of a WR APS-C camera which would be more like a G1 or GH1 in appearance.
These dimensions you list don't show much as the dimensions includes grip and flash that protrudes out from the cameras.
The only dimension that is interesting i the distance from the lens mount to the back of the camera (unless grip an flash protrudes longer than the lens).

My guess is that the biggest difference in dimension between *ist-D and K-7 is the size of the grip. The SR-mechanism might add a few extra mm on K-7.

08-05-2010, 04:49 PM   #84
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There is also the location/size of the AF sensor. It is below the mirror box, and takes up around 10mm of vertical space, which was not required on MF film SLRs.
In that sense, AF has taken up this additional space in both AF SLR and AF DSLR cameras.
08-05-2010, 04:57 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
These dimensions you list don't show much as the dimensions includes grip and flash that protrudes out from the cameras.
The only dimension that is interesting i the distance from the lens mount to the back of the camera (unless grip an flash protrudes longer than the lens).

My guess is that the biggest difference in dimension between *ist-D and K-7 is the size of the grip. The SR-mechanism might add a few extra mm on K-7.
You are assuming the grip is where it is measured. It is typically measured from the lens mount flange to the back edge. However, that's why I threw in the Me Super and the 53 year old Pentax AP. Go up and look at the red K-x beside the Sony. The K-x is bigger than the *istD.
08-05-2010, 05:02 PM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
There is also the location/size of the AF sensor. It is below the mirror box, and takes up around 10mm of vertical space, which was not required on MF film SLRs.
In that sense, AF has taken up this additional space in both AF SLR and AF DSLR cameras.
I don't get your point here. My MZ-3 af film body dimensions are 135 x 90 x 61.5 and the *ist film camera was 122 x 84 x 63.5. Besides, the K-7 and *ist are AF dSLR. Besides, the image sensor will be behind the AF sensor.
08-05-2010, 05:04 PM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
And that's why Pentax should have been in this market a while ago.

Pentax already makes lots of primes and pancakes. Pentax shooters like primes/pancakes. Panny/Oly/Sony/Samsung is stuck on the idea of a small cam as a step up for P&S users, so they sell the kits with zooms, which artificially makes them larger. Pentax can make a cam that's a step down/sideways for SLR shooters. A trimmed down K-x body - lose the prism, some of the grip depth, some of the LCD depth if possible - and it isn't tons larger than a GF1, especially with something like the DA 40mm mounted. Actually, give me a 28mm/1.4 pancake kit, and I'm good. And unlike every other miniature system, it offers a growth path.
With the long register distance of Pentax K-mount it will not be possible to make a 28mm/1.4 pancake, but with a shorter distance it might be possible. All Pentax pancakes has to be made really slow because of the disadvantage of the longer register distance, at least for lenses with shorter FL than 50mm.

QuoteQuote:
You're right, sooner or later competitors will flesh out their lens lineups. But right now it would be a unique advantage. And down the road Pentax would still have an advantage in having a range of bodies, from EVIL to semi-pro DSLR, that share a common mount, full function with no adapters.
For the lenses to be "fully functional" Pentax would have to come up with a new line of lenses optimized for contrast detection AF, even with a K-mount on the EVIL camera. The slow AF on present DSLR lenses would not be good enough. And as most Pentax lenses use screw-drive AF it would not make Pentax EVIL an option for anyone wanting video.
08-05-2010, 05:12 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
You are assuming the grip is where it is measured. It is typically measured from the lens mount flange to the back edge. However, that's why I threw in the Me Super and the 53 year old Pentax AP. Go up and look at the red K-x beside the Sony. The K-x is bigger than the *istD.
When I measure my K-7 it is about 63mm from the lens mount to the back, which is 10mm less than the specification. With the grip and viewfinder eyecup the dimension is 73mm.
08-05-2010, 05:45 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
With the long register distance of Pentax K-mount it will not be possible to make a 28mm/1.4 pancake, but with a shorter distance it might be possible. All Pentax pancakes has to be made really slow because of the disadvantage of the longer register distance, at least for lenses with shorter FL than 50mm.
It will be possible, register distance means nothing. Only important thing is how close can go rear element of the lens to focal plane. Without mirror it can go as close as with other mirrorless cameras (be them EVIL or film rangefinders).

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
For the lenses to be "fully functional" Pentax would have to come up with a new line of lenses optimized for contrast detection AF, even with a K-mount on the EVIL camera. The slow AF on present DSLR lenses would not be good enough. And as most Pentax lenses use screw-drive AF it would not make Pentax EVIL an option for anyone wanting video.
---snip---
And maybe....maybe...they can drop the AF motor on the EVIL body and go with SDM lenses only.... But they should release something like full updated DA Limited II SDM line of lenses at the same time.
---snip---
08-05-2010, 05:49 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
If it protrudes into the body, it is no longer a K mount, because it will not work with any older K mount body.
Sure, but it can work with potential new DSLR bodies with mirror lock in LiveView mode. Not as interesting with zooms as with fast, wide primes.
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