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08-11-2010, 09:00 AM   #211
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I'm curious, who would really need usable ISO 51200?
Just solid ISO6400, that's something the next generation of high resolution "FF" sensors should be able to do. Also, let's say I thing the APS-C arena would soon go forward, in terms of usable high ISO.

I'm saying they can't simply jump to a high-end camera. And that "good solid FF" doesn't necessarily means a speed demon (btw, using the K-7 platform doesn't fit with the "much faster" requirement ).

The 645D is an entirely different beast. It is as good as the competition, but with up to date technology and considerably cheaper. They can't pull the same trick in the much more competitive "FF" arena. They can't expect to rule the "FF" market, just by making a product - no matter how good.

Sigma is irrelevant; they're a 3rd-party lens&accessories maker; their camera division is just a hobby for them.

I would look at Sony as an example: that's how it shouldn't be done! Having a "FF" didn't help, maybe that's something you should have in mind

08-11-2010, 09:01 AM   #212
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Just reading this morning's rumours and predictions, what fun. I'm not at all opposed to a ff camera. But poor Pentax. On one side they have the mirrorless crowd who are insisting that Pentax must get into the evil camera design and fast - or miss the bus. Then we have the FF crowd, that says pretty much the same thing.

I think they need to do both, but in what order? There is no doubt in my mind that sometime in the future, i will be using a mirrorless camera, with a FF sensor in it. And there will be no blur at 1/80 sec shutter, because there will be no mirror :-)

Best wishes,
08-11-2010, 09:55 AM   #213
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'm curious, who would really need usable ISO 51200?
Just solid ISO6400, that's something the next generation of high resolution "FF" sensors should be able to do. Also, let's say I thing the APS-C arena would soon go forward, in terms of usable high ISO.

I'm saying they can't simply jump to a high-end camera. And that "good solid FF" doesn't necessarily means a speed demon (btw, using the K-7 platform doesn't fit with the "much faster" requirement ).

The 645D is an entirely different beast. It is as good as the competition, but with up to date technology and considerably cheaper. They can't pull the same trick in the much more competitive "FF" arena. They can't expect to rule the "FF" market, just by making a product - no matter how good.

Sigma is irrelevant; they're a 3rd-party lens&accessories maker; their camera division is just a hobby for them.

I would look at Sony as an example: that's how it shouldn't be done! Having a "FF" didn't help, maybe that's something you should have in mind
As for MILC I think that's the way they will go if they think they can make a statement that will sell. This would increase sales, market share and make the funds available for more projects. I want FF now but unless they have been getting ready in a serious way, I can't see it happening in the next 18 months. There's too much in addition that needs to be available when the camera is ready to sell.

Ask shooters like Jeff Ascough who would use ISO 51,200? Or even 102,400. Remember that even though those are high sounding numbers, they are one stop per step.

I'd sure like that extra 1 or 2 stops if they were available. There's a lot more to high ISO shooting than weddings. Consider the sports shooter or wildlife guy. They may be out in so-so conditions and want the extra latitude for higher shutter speeds or more DOF. Shooting at 51,200 in daylight might just be enough to get that sharp/frozen Bald Eagle diving for fish, shot you've been trying to capture for the last 3 years.

If they can't build a responsive speed demon FF body that is equal to the D700 or better, then don't even bother. In 2010, they have to create a camera that beats a 2008 model for people to come back or switch.

With current models, APSc can't hit those high ISO's and i am guessing it's an engineering battle between having 15+ MP's for marketing reasons and the compressed size of that many pixels on a small chip. Just ask a 7D owner how happy they are with the high ISO's of that model. You'll get a lot of disappointed owners.

I never said, nor ever thought it was possible to "rule" FF for Pentax. What they need is a model that will keep the loyal customers they have, get back many they have lost and earn a few converts.

Consider what a FF buyer will spend. Maybe $2500-3000 for a body and $5000 -10,000 in lenses, flashes and accessories. That's worth a lot to any company. Pentax doesn't get a single one of those deals now and looses High end APSc shooters to other brands when the shooter wants/needs more.
08-11-2010, 10:52 AM   #214
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
As for MILC I think that's the way they will go if they think they can make a statement that will sell. This would increase sales, market share and make the funds available for more projects. I want FF now but unless they have been getting ready in a serious way, I can't see it happening in the next 18 months. There's too much in addition that needs to be available when the camera is ready to sell.

Ask shooters like Jeff Ascough who would use ISO 51,200? Or even 102,400. Remember that even though those are high sounding numbers, they are one stop per step.

I'd sure like that extra 1 or 2 stops if they were available. There's a lot more to high ISO shooting than weddings. Consider the sports shooter or wildlife guy. They may be out in so-so conditions and want the extra latitude for higher shutter speeds or more DOF. Shooting at 51,200 in daylight might just be enough to get that sharp/frozen Bald Eagle diving for fish, shot you've been trying to capture for the last 3 years.

If they can't build a responsive speed demon FF body that is equal to the D700 or better, then don't even bother. In 2010, they have to create a camera that beats a 2008 model for people to come back or switch.

With current models, APSc can't hit those high ISO's and i am guessing it's an engineering battle between having 15+ MP's for marketing reasons and the compressed size of that many pixels on a small chip. Just ask a 7D owner how happy they are with the high ISO's of that model. You'll get a lot of disappointed owners.

I never said, nor ever thought it was possible to "rule" FF for Pentax. What they need is a model that will keep the loyal customers they have, get back many they have lost and earn a few converts.

Consider what a FF buyer will spend. Maybe $2500-3000 for a body and $5000 -10,000 in lenses, flashes and accessories. That's worth a lot to any company. Pentax doesn't get a single one of those deals now and looses High end APSc shooters to other brands when the shooter wants/needs more.
I agree that Pentax basically has two options if they want to go full frame. They can either upgrade their whole system to the point where they can compete for professionals, like you are suggesting. Or, they can release a Nikon D700 or Sony A850 like camera (a generation behind) in Pentax form at a lower price point.

Unless Pentax/Hoya wants to get serious about upgrading its appeal to professionals, I think the second option is a better one for them at this point. It won't steal a lot of professionals from the other brands, but I believe it would sell well among Pentax users and prosumers who want the benefits of full frame at a lower price.

Case in point, the Leica M9 is doing pretty well, and it is hugely expensive, doesn't autofocus at all and is by no means a high ISO monster. Why is it succeeding then? Because it appeals to what has made Leica a darling of photographers for decades. If Pentax goes full frame, it needs to find a similar way to bring out a camera that features its own unique character.

08-11-2010, 10:57 AM   #215
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QuoteOriginally posted by Peter Zack Quote
Lenses make profit. Pure and simple. Bodies are the doorway to the brand.
Peter, I've been wondering about the profit of camera & lens makers. Do you have some reference for this? It makes sense that when one buys his/her first DSLR, the aquisition of lenses follows. However, for the big spenders it will be the contrary after a while. When you have the lenses you need, you just keep upgrading the camera bodies.
08-11-2010, 11:06 AM   #216
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Peter Zack:
The most successful "FF" camera of the moment, the 5DMkII, doesn't fit your profile. It's slower (not even 4 fps), it's AF is not that fast and by ISO25600 is very noisy.

I'm well aware of what ISO 51200 means, even if I wasn't ever able to use such a setting. Shooting the eagle in daylight, hoping that you may get decent results - 1/500@ISO 51200 is equivalent to 1"@ISO100. What kind of daylight is that?
I don't know how often Mr. Ascough is using ISO 51200 (or even 102400) but for sure a lot of PP is used to get something decent - in an artistic, not technical way.
Sorry, but I believe you're exaggerating the importance of such insanely high ISOs.

You said: "Who says that the camera has to be entry-level? The 645D sure isn't.". The point is, they could afford to make the 645D because they can effectively compete in that market. But none of the advantages they have on that market can be applied for a small format camera.
In other words, the 645D's success story has no significance over "FF".

How many pentaxians would spend 2500-3000$ on a camera and 5000-10000$ in lenses, flashes and accessories? Are we talking about the pro market, very difficult to get into?
It would be a mistake for Pentax to try and compete for the small format pro market; it would most likely bankrupt them. It's a lot of effort, besides making the cameras& lenses; that's why they're not even trying. That's why even Sony, with their big dreams, haven't tried.
This brute force approach won't work for Pentax; they just can't afford to play this game.
08-11-2010, 11:52 AM   #217
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My understanding is that the difference in high iso should be roughly one stop between APS C and Full frame. That is to say, that if you can shoot decent iso 3200 on APS C, you should be able to shoot decent iso 6400 on a full frame camera. More than that seems unlikely to me. The same improvements that allow better high iso on full frame can be applied to crop frame as well and so they improve at the same rate (roughly).
08-11-2010, 12:28 PM   #218
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Apart from expecting some sort of announcement on a FF camera, I seriously hope that Pentax might announce the production of a K7-like replacement with just two very important added things (to me they are, anyway): higher-ISO quality sensor and a faster/more efficient AF lock-on-moving subjects. If it's going to be an APS-C, so be it.
I don't really care if they increase the number of megapixels or stay the same, or if the new sensor will be FF, to me it is all about being able to shoot "moving" wildlife under sometimes not so friendly lighting conditions. Therefore, an "upgraded" APS-C-based K7 replacement would be just my bag of beans!

JP


Last edited by jpzk; 08-11-2010 at 12:29 PM. Reason: spelling
08-11-2010, 12:30 PM   #219
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Iso 25,600

The two year old Nikon D700 can deliver useable images at ISO 12,600. Through Nikon Software the camera can be pushed to ISO 25,600. No APS-C camera can come close.

High ISO is just one facet of the argument. A 50mm on a FullFrame 35mm DSLR is awesome. Not so much on an APS-C camera. Why 50mm? It's closest to what the human eye sees. The 50mm is often the sharpest lens in a camera makers stable and has the least perspective distortion as well.

The increased size of the sensor also has a direct positive impact on IQ (Image Quality) when compared to a similarly spec'd APS-C sensor.



QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
My understanding is that the difference in high iso should be roughly one stop between APS C and Full frame. That is to say, that if you can shoot decent iso 3200 on APS C, you should be able to shoot decent iso 6400 on a full frame camera. More than that seems unlikely to me. The same improvements that allow better high iso on full frame can be applied to crop frame as well and so they improve at the same rate (roughly).
08-11-2010, 12:55 PM   #220
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The K-x can deliver similar (bad) results at ISO6400 as the D700 at ISO12800.
08-11-2010, 01:23 PM   #221
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???

The two year old Nikon D700 doesn't deliver bad results at ISO 12,800. The Pentax K-X cannot match the performance of the Nikon D700.

Check out this link:

Nikon D700 Review - ThinkCamera Reviews

The FullFrame sensor in the D700 is really a great performer. Nikon is releasing a replacement for the D700 at or after Photokina which will most likely be even better. If I don't hear anything from Pentax about a FullFrame DSLR I will be heading back to Nikon. You can keep shooting with an APS-C Pentax K-X if that makes you happy.

The idea that the Pentax K-X can match the performance of the D700 is laughable.


I saw the same angst in the Nikon Forums when it was rumored that Nikon was bringing out a FullFrame DSLR more than two years ago. The APS-C users acted like it was the end of the world and that FullFrame had no advantages.

Nikon sells both APS-C and FullFrame DSLR's. The world hasn't ended. By offering their customers choices Nikon has retained market share and sales. What does Pentax offer? Two APS-C DSLR's to the DSLR market? I'm not counting the 645D because its price point puts it out of reach of many consumers.

Pentax keeps bleeding customers and market share to other camera manufacturers. Not a recipe for increasing profits or market share.

There are differences and many benefits to the FullFrame DSLR format. I can't believe people can keep arguing with facts. Well, Sarah Palin has her own group of supporters so anything is possible.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The K-x can deliver similar (bad) results at ISO6400 as the D700 at ISO12800.
08-11-2010, 01:42 PM   #222
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Peter Zack:
The most successful "FF" camera of the moment, the 5DMkII, doesn't fit your profile. It's slower (not even 4 fps), it's AF is not that fast and by ISO25600 is very noisy.

I'm well aware of what ISO 51200 means, even if I wasn't ever able to use such a setting. Shooting the eagle in daylight, hoping that you may get decent results - 1/500@ISO 51200 is equivalent to 1"@ISO100. What kind of daylight is that?
I don't know how often Mr. Ascough is using ISO 51200 (or even 102400) but for sure a lot of PP is used to get something decent - in an artistic, not technical way.
Sorry, but I believe you're exaggerating the importance of such insanely high ISOs.

You said: "Who says that the camera has to be entry-level? The 645D sure isn't.". The point is, they could afford to make the 645D because they can effectively compete in that market. But none of the advantages they have on that market can be applied for a small format camera.
In other words, the 645D's success story has no significance over "FF".

How many pentaxians would spend 2500-3000$ on a camera and 5000-10000$ in lenses, flashes and accessories? Are we talking about the pro market, very difficult to get into?
It would be a mistake for Pentax to try and compete for the small format pro market; it would most likely bankrupt them. It's a lot of effort, besides making the cameras& lenses; that's why they're not even trying. That's why even Sony, with their big dreams, haven't tried.
This brute force approach won't work for Pentax; they just can't afford to play this game.
I could argue every point if you like. Jeff does shoot very high ISO's and he says it's changed his shooting entirely with the new camera. He's considered one of the top wedding shooters world wide. I won't argue against a shooter of his calibre.

What I was saying about the wildlife shooter easily could be during the 'golden hours" or any time the light is a challenge. Do you need it at noon on a sunny day. Nope!! but I can think of many times I wished for more in tougher light.

Since I've had the opportunty to shoot clean shots at these higher ISO's I'm not exaggerating. For my needs, more is always better. I always struggled to get what I needed out of the K20D/K-7 sensor. That's not an issue now and a treat.

Why couldn't they build a K-700 that has clean 6400 and available 12,800, 51,200? Why not? the 645D is basically a K-7 on steriods.

Last edited by Peter Zack; 08-11-2010 at 01:49 PM.
08-11-2010, 01:48 PM   #223
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QuoteOriginally posted by emr Quote
Peter, I've been wondering about the profit of camera & lens makers. Do you have some reference for this? It makes sense that when one buys his/her first DSLR, the aquisition of lenses follows. However, for the big spenders it will be the contrary after a while. When you have the lenses you need, you just keep upgrading the camera bodies.
We know lots of shooters that were once here and now have moved to other brands. LBA doesn't stop when you buy a FF body. People might not switch lenses as often due to costs etc, but if something new comes along, they jump on it. The hideously high prices for the Nikon 24-70mm f2.8 is a case in point. They are everywhere and even with the Tamron 28-75mm being 1/3 the cost and equal in performance, they are still selling fast.

But my point is, does Pentax want a K-x sale and a kit lens at $649 or a K-700 and 6 lenses at $12,000 ++. I'd like to see Pentax getting both. Right now they only get one.

We have a bad habit of looking at Pentax as the cheap alternative. But if the gear isn't getting you where you need to go, then you'll jump ship and spend what ever you can afford to get the kit you need. Sadly we've seen far too much of this.
08-11-2010, 01:53 PM   #224
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QuoteOriginally posted by Angevinn Quote
Nikon sells both APS-C and FullFrame DSLR's. The world hasn't ended....What does Pentax offer? Two APS-C DSLR's to the DSLR market?
The key difference is that Pentax is not Nikon! Nikon owns the market share, Pentax does not have the same luxury.

QuoteQuote:
Pentax keeps bleeding customers and market share to other camera manufacturers. Not a recipe for increasing profits or market share.
There is little evidence that there is any significant bleeding till this point. FF market share remains minuscule, so ex-Pentax users have not added much to that number. Yeah, you can read some posting declaring that they are leaving Pentax, but they are few and far between,

QuoteQuote:
I can't believe people can keep arguing with facts.
I don't care if Pentax put out a FF or not. What I disagree with is the thinking that Pentax would be doomed without one. Sure, if Pentax has the extra money and resources, by all means, have another camera model on sale. But if they don't, then Pentax would do just fine without a FF - as your said, "the world hasn't ended".
08-11-2010, 01:59 PM   #225
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The K-x can deliver similar (bad) results at ISO6400 as the D700 at ISO12800.
Since I happen to have 2 Tamron 28-75's here and also a D700 and a K-x, let me refute this tomorrow for you. I'll take some time and post some Jpegs from both cameras. The K-x is a great little camera and they are moving in the right direction. but please, don't compare to cameras that as so vastly different in almost every way.

I'm post this stuff because I hope Pentax JP and USA is reading. We are loosing customers and loosing the opportunity to grab buyers from other brands. Pentax based it's growth on the K-x. That's not the promised land no matter how nice the camera is. The K-7 was a failure IMO. I've posted this before. I'm buying a used one in the next few days If I can get one here, but at the time, I was hugely disappointed that the sensor was no better than the K20D. Advances in every other respect but imaging was a huge let down.
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