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08-12-2010, 03:43 PM   #286
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Personally I would be more interested in a Pentax FF that was designed to use the 645D lenes. .
That would be a completely ridiculous idea and it would never happen.

08-12-2010, 03:46 PM   #287
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Sony is not going to abandon FF anytime soon.

Pentax is not going to make a FF anytime soon.
.
I would not be surprised if you are wrong on both accounts.
FF must be a disaster for Sony. The low salesvolume of their FF models must make them a money drain.
I would not be surprised if Sony drops the whole Alpha line in the next five years or so. A market share that low with Sony's model line-up and distribution and marketingpower is nothing short of mind blowing.
08-12-2010, 03:50 PM   #288
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
But why would any manufacturer do that? Making FF compete with the higher end APS cameras will only make all the manufacturers less profitable. Hence, I don't believe it will happen unless sensor suddenly become dirt cheap.
Why move to digital from film?

You put capital into making APS-C sensors, and doing so drove the price down. Take that capital, put it into FF sensors, drive the price down to take customers away from the other guy.

It is basic micro-economics.

The sensors don't "suddenly become dirt cheap". APS-C was not. Capital investment and marketing (digital is better than film) spurred demand, which then allowed for price drops.

Most people who question the FF issue get this part fundamentally wrong.
08-12-2010, 04:35 PM   #289
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I'm raining on the parade, I know, but for the moment FF for Pentax strikes me as a huge red herring. Where I live, Pentax equipment is sold through the internet and through general electrical stores. Few conventional camera shops stock Pentax products any more. Over the past couple of years, Pentax have cut back on their sales through traditional outlets, the kind that are much more likely destinations for those looking for high-end stuff like FF cameras. This suggests to me that Pentax see their bread-and-butter income coming from the lower, pop end of the market. One example: in the town where I live, which has about 100,000 people in it, you cannot buy any FF camera from any brand at all. You can buy APS-C cameras in four or five places, but FF is considered too high-end for consumers so stores do not stock them. For FF you would have to go to a specialist shop in a big city.

If this is the case, and if Pentax have cut back their sales network with a plan in mind rather than through panic when they were bleeding money, then the immediate threat to Pentax over the next couple of years lies in cameras like the Sony NEX and the Samsung NX5 which go straight for the market segment the Pentax K-x now occupies, as do similar cameras from Panasonic. Soon there will be others. If Pentax fails to come up with a convincing competitor to cameras like these, which are intended to sell in substantial numbers, then Pentax will be in trouble, imho.

FF will never pull them out of the hole. Of the few people who want and can afford FF most are going to go for Canon or Nikon anyway, not least because of their extensive range of lenses and better support. Pentax would never be able to sell enough FF cameras to support themselves. They need a robust presence lower down the scale. They are where they are, and it is not in the FF market. You guys can argue over FF ad infinitum - that's fine. But at the moment FF has the capacity only to destroy Pentax - by racking up huge losses in a small market segment. FF cannot save Pentax and so is not the answer.

08-12-2010, 06:11 PM   #290
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Agreed, Pentax should never offer full frame

Agreed, Pentax should never offer full frame !!!!!!!!!!!!

If Pentax offered up 24x36 then I'd regret selling off my full frame Pentax K-Mount lenses this fall

Seriously, Pentax should skip mirrorless cameras too !
Pentax knows these cameras have no mirror so it should not count as a interchangeable lens camera sale anyways.

Maybe just offer up some color choices to the sad black samsung sensored & shutter blurring Flagship K-7 & call it "Super Duper" & reset the launch price & hopefully, Hoya will give us all many more plastic mount lens choices without quick shift to save themselves another dime or two.
This is very very good as plastic mount lens sales mean many more profits for Hoya

I wouldn't want my imaging desires to upset Hoya's profit margin

Thats what Canon and Nikon are for, you know, for photographers who want seemingly endless imaging choices till their wallet's are emptied and who are not selfishly concerned with a manufacturer's (Pentax) bottom line.

Anybody here in these forums bought a 645D yet ?


QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
I'm raining on the parade, I know, but for the moment FF for Pentax strikes me as a huge red herring. Where I live, Pentax equipment is sold through the internet and through general electrical stores. Few conventional camera shops stock Pentax products any more. Over the past couple of years, Pentax have cut back on their sales through traditional outlets, the kind that are much more likely destinations for those looking for high-end stuff like FF cameras. This suggests to me that Pentax see their bread-and-butter income coming from the lower, pop end of the market. One example: in the town where I live, which has about 100,000 people in it, you cannot buy any FF camera from any brand at all. You can buy APS-C cameras in four or five places, but FF is considered too high-end for consumers so stores do not stock them. For FF you would have to go to a specialist shop in a big city.

If this is the case, and if Pentax have cut back their sales network with a plan in mind rather than through panic when they were bleeding money, then the immediate threat to Pentax over the next couple of years lies in cameras like the Sony NEX and the Samsung NX5 which go straight for the market segment the Pentax K-x now occupies, as do similar cameras from Panasonic. Soon there will be others. If Pentax fails to come up with a convincing competitor to cameras like these, which are intended to sell in substantial numbers, then Pentax will be in trouble, imho.

FF will never pull them out of the hole. Of the few people who want and can afford FF most are going to go for Canon or Nikon anyway, not least because of their extensive range of lenses and better support. Pentax would never be able to sell enough FF cameras to support themselves. They need a robust presence lower down the scale. They are where they are, and it is not in the FF market. You guys can argue over FF ad infinitum - that's fine. But at the moment FF has the capacity only to destroy Pentax - by racking up huge losses in a small market segment. FF cannot save Pentax and so is not the answer.
08-12-2010, 06:28 PM   #291
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Sigh, who let the price checking, Pentax bashing, Canon troll loose...
Point is I'll wager that some who advocate so strongly for FF here are not even prepared to put all that talk into action... why not jump ship to Canikon now and spare yourself all that angst whether Pentax will roll out a FF camera?
After all Pentax's days are numbered cause Canon's gonna roll out that supposed $1500 FF wonder... disaster's gonna strike in 2012 people...
Don't be a NATO member - No Action, Talk Only... The grass is actually greener on the other side...

Last edited by creampuff; 08-12-2010 at 06:42 PM. Reason: typo
08-12-2010, 06:35 PM   #292
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Hoya Delayed the 645D?

I believe Pentax first announced the 645D in 2005 and then didn't do much with it. The 645D that is for sale today is no where near the camera that was shown in 2005. I've read different news pieces that Hoya cracked the whip and got the 645D rolling again at Pentax. There was a slight hold up over the next generation SD card format (SDXC) which I don't believe was even included in the 645D, Hoya was trying though. There were also some supply issues either with the sensor or something that slowed down the 645's launch. You are right, it worked out!

Check out this write up from 2005:

http://www.livingroom.org.au/photolog/reviews/pentax/pentax_645_digital.php


QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
But Hoya is also responsible (partly) for the delay of 645D since Hoya put it on hold. It may be a good thing in the end (645D sharing tech with the K-7 rather than the K10).
08-12-2010, 06:36 PM   #293
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Hey now creamypuff dude I own a Nikon D700 too like many other fleeing Pentaxians

Hey now creamypuff dude I own a Nikon D700 too like many other fleeing Pentaxians.

You know, those Fleeing Pentax who've left for their own imaging desires, needs, wants, goals, visions...
Photographers who no longer are concerned with Hoya's priorities, needs, & wants.

I Just got another full frame Nikon goodie delivered today, at just 1/3 of current price, same as new, but without the box

Nikon scrounging for deals is quite fun, kinda like Pentax was for me 5 to 7 years ago.

Join me in either Dark Side Creamster, I just got to unload my Pentax treasures & I'm golden.




QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Sigh, who let the price checking, Pentax bashing, Canon troll loose...



Last edited by Samsungian; 08-12-2010 at 06:52 PM.
08-12-2010, 06:48 PM   #294
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Are You Serious?

Pentax was in really bad shape before Hoya took them over. Don't kid yourself. Hoya has had their work cut out for them in reviving Pentax. Pentax's board and major stockholders were not initially interested in the merger. Hoya had to pay a premium of 20% over the then value of Pentax stock to get control of the company. If Hoya keeps straightening out Pentax and keeps Pentax profitable it will be worth it in the long run. Pentax has a lot of room to grow. Pentax has already seen a market share increase under Hoya. Not bad considering Pentax has been losing market share since the late 1970's.

News Headlines


QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Angevinn: no, Hoya didn't bailout for Pentax; Pentax was profitable back then (right after the K10D) and in a much better shape than Minolta/Konica-Minolta.
In fact, many from the Pentax's board believed they were able to go alone; in the end, they had to give in, due to strong pressure from certain shareholders.
08-12-2010, 06:50 PM   #295
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Hey now creamypuff dude I own a Nikon D700 too like many other fleeing Pentaxians.

You know, those Fleeing Pentax who've left for their own imaging desires, needs, wants, goals, visions...
Photographers who no longer are concerned with Hoya's priorities, needs, & wants.

I Just got another full frame Nikon goodie delivered today, at fully 1/3 of current price, same as new but without the box

Nikon scrounging for deals is quite fun, kinda like Pentax was for me 5 to 7 years ago.
Thanks for letting us know... if Canon and Nikon FF is what you gets you going why even hang around Pentaxforums cause last I heard with the exception of the new 645D, all of Pentax cameras are APS-C, not FF...
Anyway thanks for your invitation to jump ship, I can get my hands on FF gear easily enough. Right now I don't need or see the need for it. I can shoot just as well with APS-C or with FF... no difference to me.

Last edited by creampuff; 08-12-2010 at 07:00 PM.
08-12-2010, 06:55 PM   #296
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
Hey now creamypuff dude I own a Nikon D700 too like many other fleeing Pentaxians.

You know, those Fleeing Pentax who've left for their own imaging desires, needs, wants, goals, visions...
Photographers who no longer are concerned with Hoya's priorities, needs, & wants.

I Just got another full frame Nikon goodie delivered today, at just 1/3 of current price, same as new, but without the box

Nikon scrounging for deals is quite fun, kinda like Pentax was for me 5 to 7 years ago.

Join me in either Dark Side Creamster, I just got to unload my Pentax treasures & I'm golden.


Congrats I guess?
08-12-2010, 07:01 PM   #297
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You added more words

You added more words so,

My reply is Pentax owners need a $1500 full frame to buy in, while Canon sells $2500 Mark II's and Nikon sells $2400 D700 today, last month, last year.

Pentaxians wait while Canikon owners buy full frame for a solid $1,000 more than the Pentax full frame fantasy price seekers predict will happen.
I've been reading these tainted tea leaves since 2006.
Full frame Pentax is a fantasy, not based in Hoya's reality.
If it don't make Hoya a profit then pentax won't make it.




QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Sigh, who let the price checking, Pentax bashing, Canon troll loose...
Point is I'll wager that some who advocate so strongly for FF here are not even prepared to put all that talk into action... why not jump ship to Canikon now and spare yourself all that angst whether Pentax will roll out a FF camera?
After all Pentax's days are numbered cause Canon's gonna roll out that supposed $1500 FF wonder... disaster's gonna strike in 2012 people...
Don't be a NATO member - No Action, Talk Only... The grass is actually greener on the other side...
08-12-2010, 07:07 PM   #298
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Ah Samsungian, haven't you learnt by now Pentax users want terrific value NOW, so what you propose is not a workable option. In such dire global economic conditions, people want the biggest bang for the buck, not the biggest hole in the pocket for a bigger sensor...



So will you buy a K-7 now?
08-12-2010, 07:10 PM - 1 Like   #299
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Price of Spotmatic F New by Today's USD is $2804.53!

TaoMaas, you should reread my original statement or go back to sleep.

The Pentax Spotmatic F, brand new in 1974 with a SMC Takumar 50mm 1.4 Lens was $600.00! Adjusted for inflation, today that equals $2804.53!

Check this out for the specs:

Asahi Pentax Spotmatic F

$600.00 new in 1974!

Using the online inflation calculator:

DollarTimes.com | Inflation Calculator

It comes out to $2804.53 in today's dollar. Sad!

What does Pentax offer currently in that price range ($2,800)? Both the Canon 5D MKII and Nikon D700 Fullframe cameras with their respective 50mm 1.4 lenses can be had for that amount. What does Pentax have? Two APS-C cameras to choose from? The 645D is out reach for many consumers. It's also a lot of camera, I just want a FF DSLR.

How am I guilty of seeing the market through my own eyes? I am not a camera manufacturer. I'm a consumer, (but I've spent my business career in sales and marketing). I have the money and desire for FullFrame DSLR. If Pentax doesn't offer one in the future I'll move on. It's a shame because Pentax needs to offer more choices to keep customers. If I was in the market for an entry level APS-C DSLR I'd consider the Pentax K-X, the APS-C K-7 is an interesting camera but it does not meet my needs or wants.

Different strokes for different folks. All I see is combative resentment towards forum members asking Hoya/Pentax for a FullFrame DSLR camera. The APS-C diehards act like someone has just run over their prized poodle.


QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
I don't know where you shopped, but the Spotmatic F that I used to lust for (and would go to the camera store several times each week just so I could feel one in my hands) was selling for about $250. A few years later, the K1000 (which is what the Spotmatic evolved into) could be bought online for around $100 (body only). Pentax's current entry level camera, the Kx, is selling for about $500 online. So I think you're fudging your figures a bit there. Regardless, the prices I'm giving you aren't theoretical...they're real world.



You're doing exactly what you're accusing others of doing...looking at things from your viewpoint only. The truth is, not too many people are saying FF is "just bad", are they? No, we're simply saying that FF holds no fascination for us and that we could do quite well for a long, long time with APS-C cameras. But the FF endorsers are saying that FF will eliminate the APS-C market. Eh...I'm not so sure that's gonna happen unless FF can get their price down WELL below $1000. Frankly, I doubt that'll happen anytime soon. If it does...great! Every lens I own except my 18-55 kit lens is ready for FF today. But if FF doesn't happen...I'm okay with that, too. I can go either way on this deal. My only big complaint is that I don't want to see camera prices go any higher because I think they already represent a significant investment for those folks who might be considering getting into serious photography. And if we close out the new photographers, ALL the upper end cameras will die.
I DO recognize that FF is pretty much a "must" for some people. They've run into a wall and a FF camera would be a life-saver to them. I was talking to a guy in my camera club about this a while back. He'd been hired by some boxing promoters. He's having to stop action in very dim light, but without using flash. He was raving about how much better his shots were with his new FF camera because of it's performance at higher ISO's. So, yeah....some folks do need it. But I also recognize that there's many, many more people who only think it's a "must". We have those kinds of guys in my camera club, too. LOL
You know, even if Pentax were to come out with a FF by the end of the week, some folks would still gripe. Before this latest craze, they complained about autofocus speed, fps, and high ISO. There will ALWAYS be some reason why this person or that feels they have to sell all their gear and change systems. Most of them are equally convinced that Pentax can't possibly survive without them. lol But, if we step back and look at this thing realistically, who else but Pentax has battled Canon and Nikon for so long and so well and are still players in the game, even if on a more limited scale than in the past? We also need to keep in mind that this isn't Pentax's only battlefield, either. They're taking on another set of stalwarts in the MF field in the form of Mamiya and Hasselblad. So I've gotta believe that Pentax knows much better than we do how to run their company.

Last edited by Angevinn; 08-12-2010 at 08:13 PM.
08-12-2010, 07:12 PM   #300
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
You added more words so,

My reply is Pentax owners need a $1500 full frame to buy in, while Canon sells $2500 Mark II's and Nikon sells $2400 D700 today, last month, last year.

Pentaxians wait while Canikon owners buy full frame for a solid $1,000 more than the Pentax full frame fantasy price seekers predict will happen.
I've been reading these tainted tea leaves since 2006.
Full frame Pentax is a fantasy, not based in Hoya's reality.
If it don't make Hoya a profit then pentax won't make it.
You're making a false assumption. It's not up to Pentax. It's up to the big 3: Canon, Nikon, and Sony.

If they choose to put FF sensors in at lower price points, either Pentax does as well or it can longer economically produce DSLR's and lenses. If FF's get within $400 of the street price of the Pentax APS-C flagship, that flagship is no longer financially viable.

Pentax has absolutely no option but to contemplate FF because either Canon or Nikon will blink and start offering FF sensors in sub-$2,000 bodies. It's not if, but when.
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