Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
08-15-2010, 08:37 AM   #406
Site Supporter
ismaelg's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Puerto Rico
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 962
Back to the original topic, from what I've seen Pentax will announce the 2 models we already heard about (Kr and K5). It seems to me that the mirrorless is still unclear. It could be a ready product or just a prototype. But there should be something about mirrorless. New FF compatible lenses but no official word on FF so the debate/rage will continue.
What I'd like to see has nothing to do with sensors or bodies. I'd love to see a clear indication of a pro grade service network, more retail presence and some real marketing efforts. New accesories are also badly needed, especially flash as mentioned.
We center most of the discussion in sensors and bodies and FF vs APS-C, but there is more than that in this gigantic equation.

If you asked me a year ago, or even just a few months ago, I would have told you I would drink molten lead before even considering looking at any other brand. But today, I'm lurking into the used market for 5D1 with 24-105 L glass. I fear I'm not alone.
As a 20+ years hardcore pentaxian, I certainly hope Pentax is moving in the right direction in all aspects.

Thanks,

08-15-2010, 08:43 AM   #407
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 5,794
QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
This is a misunderstanding. What people have stated is that a) everything else being equal size determines high-ISO performance and b) pixel-pitch (or pixel size if you like) has no bearing on high-ISO performance.

Of course, noisy A/D converters, etc. can have a higher influence on high-ISO performance than sensor size.


You cannot use real world examples where large technological differences are involved to conclude that pixel-pitch is the determining factor.

By the same token, you could conclude from real world examples that having even-toed hoofs makes you have a multi-chambered stomach. For every animal you can observe that's true but there is no causality. Your case is worse since your hypothesis does not even hold for all observable sensors.
That is kind of the point of my entire argument.
"What people have stated is that everything else being equal size determines high-ISO performance"

Everything else IS NEVER EQUAL which kind of makes the rest of the statement pointless. That is my point in asking for a real world example.... Equal does not exist in the real world and the second part of the statement depends on the first part being true.

" pixel-pitch (or pixel size if you like) has no bearing on high-ISO performance."

Nikon obviously disagrees with you. Their approach has been to use larger more efficient photosites to achieve better high-ISO performance. Canon is using a different approach, but they can not match Nikon when it comes to high-ISO. If pixel-pitch has not bearing on high ISO performance then the D3x would be able to perform just as well as the D3s as high ISO. Nikon was willing to sacrifice high ISO performance to gain resolution.

"Of course, noisy A/D converters, etc. can have a higher influence on high-ISO performance than sensor size."
That is not what has been said. The statement I was arguing against was that "Size was the most significant factor in high-ISO performance". I have stated in previous posts that there are other technologies that are more important than size.
08-15-2010, 08:51 AM   #408
Veteran Member
Kenn100D's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Paranaque City, Philippines
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 646
We all something like PRO-Grade Pentax. For now the best guess is that K-5 will be the Pro-Grade Camera targeted to compete Canon 7D. If this is the case i still stick with Pentax. Its still APS-C and i think they wont let down on the features and IQ. this time it will be a real good sensor. Designed by Pentax manufatured by Sony(as the contractor for the manufacturing). (Like K-X).
08-15-2010, 09:02 AM   #409
Senior Member




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Osaka
Posts: 144
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Take a look at the GH1. 4/3 sensor that is out performing most APS-C sensors on the market. GH1 has the same pixel density as the 18MP 7D.

The GH1 is an older sensor that is going to be replaced in the GH2 next month, but it still holds its own against the new 7D.
I just did. Here: Bildqualität | Testberichte | dkamera.de | Das Digitalkamera-Magazin
More exactly GH1 vs 550D (same sensor than 7D) since there is no 7D. I compared many settings, day light, night light, all in RAW (process jpeg don't say anything about processor results) and I see: about 2 stops advantage for the Canon. Not kidding!
Another example?

08-15-2010, 09:03 AM   #410
Moderator
Site Supporter
Blue's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Florida Hill Country
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 17,212
QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Pentax strength is in WR so, yes, a WR flash is needed. And also a teleconverter.

But the number one thing I desire is a tilt/shift mount to which we can attach 645 lenses. It makes so much sense: the mount itself is only mechanical and need not cost the moon, even if well engineered. The lenses are already out there with more to be released to accompany the 645D. This would interest MF shooters in a smaller companion camera and APS-C shooters in getting 645 lenses, lessening the blow when they "move up" to something even better than FF.

Tilt/shift is so essential to landscape photography, which is where Pentax places themselves in the market. And it's also vital in architecture, which could be a new growth market. It's a small market for sure, but photogs buy into Canon only for their tilt/shift and spend a fortune. Pentax could steal this market segment quite easily, which would further help establish their kudos.
There is another 3rd party shift option now. Oly made a 24mm and 35mm shift lens and a Leitax adapter for Oly/Pentax. The 24 is a little bit wider than the Pentax 28mm.
08-15-2010, 09:08 AM   #411
Veteran Member
falconeye's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Munich, Alps, Germany
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,863
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by youky63 Quote
Right, sorry for the digressions.

So, in my mind (and seems you have inside infos confirming the fact), FF will and can NOT be released this year. It would have make sense to make a FF K7, but they didn't. Even if my heart say "do it now Pentax!", my head conclude they missed the train and must catch another one.

The mirrorless camera train

I am living in Japan, and from the Japanese point of view, mirrorless camera is THE must have for camera company in 2010. I don't know if it will continue for many years, but right now Pana, Oly and Sony sell their EVIL things like hot cakes! They have the most crowded shelves in giants camera shops and attract many photographers (from my observation, mainly young for Pany and Sony, and mainly old for Oly. Difference of design I guess).

Annoncements

So, what Pentax/Hoya must announce in the next 2 years... For me, mirrorless camera is the absolute priority () and must (will?) be done this september. They must make it very compact, but keep the "Pentax style" (SR, WR). If I was Pentax chief designer project, I would have made like a NEX camera, with a new very short mount but wide enough for a potential FF sensor (who knows what will happen in 5 or 10 years?). Also, I would put IS in the lenses, to reduce the size, weight and price of the camera, but will put a build in flash (pop up or not? Good question... Probably not for WR, but maybe no choice because of the size of the lenses). Or, option number 2, a m4/3 system. Maybe not so good for IQ, but with a so big potential for lenses sales that it is probably very appealing!

At the same time, as expected, I would also announce a new flagship camera (will be the K5) with one of Sony's sensors. But I would also keep all the actual models! Because 2 cameras are really and definitely not enough to attract people.

The minority dilemma

Look at the other brands (from official french websites):
-Olympus: 9 cameras (E-3, E-30, E-420, E-450, E520, E-560, E-PL1, E-P1, E-P2)
-Panasonic: 5 cameras (Lumix G2, DMC-G1, DMC-G10, DMC-GH1, DMC-GF1) + many many good compact/bridge cameras (world leader)
-Sony: 9 cameras, and soon many more (a290, a330, a450, a500, a550, a850, a900, NEX-3, NEX-5)
-Canon: 9 cameras (european names: 1000D, 450D, 500D, 550D, 50D, 7D, 5DMkII, 1DMkiV, 1DsMkIII)
-Nikon: 10 cameras (!!!) (D60, D3000, D5000, D90, D300, D300s, D700, D3, D3s, D3x)

Pentax is offering good products, but the choice is so small compared to other companies that people have more chance to find what they "exactly" want in other brands. And one more time, when you buy the bigger one (k7, equivalent of middle class in other brands), then you feel "trapped" because you cannot upgrade to any better machine. I do with my K20D.

Glasses

Since I expect a brand new body with a new mount, of course I expect them to release a semi-dozen of new lenses during the next year. People will want choice from Pentax, more than from Sony (P&S photographers, they just need a zoom to be happy). Which means at least 2 zooms, and a few primes.
Also I would announce this year a good wide angle for 645D camera. And make clear it will be released world wide soon (so people can start to save money).

And then?

With a new system, they must push in this way for a while, at least 2 years. That means I would not introduce a FF camera before 2 years, probably when Nikon will announce the D900. Instead, I would announce middle of next year a new 645D body, expend the model for worldwide distribution, and keep the 2nd one specifically for Japan. Higher or lower spec? I don't know. Maybe lower, to attract new amateurs. Or higher, if their is a need from professionals for such product.
youky63, thanks for your good analysis. I largely agree.

The only point where I may not totally agree is the parallelism of things. I already wrote in my article that SLD is an evolution not to be missed by Pentax. But I largely see the P&S, Bridge camera and entry-level dSLR teams being in charge here. I advocate to split effort into this volume market activity, and an enthusiast market team dedicated to image quality excellence. The latter team would be responsible to migrate K-7/K-5 into FF territory and make 645D a success.

IMHO, Pentax cannot afford to only do one of the two things outlined above. And they don't, as the expected announcements of SLD and K-5 confirm.

My article focusses on what we would recommend the latter "enthusiast" team should do.


I join you, youky63 in thinking that Pentax' SLD mount should preserve future synergies by being wide enough for a future 35mm SLD camera.


One last note ... I think we don't need to respond anymore to Winder's pixel pitch arguments in this thread.
08-15-2010, 09:59 AM   #412
Site Supporter
jpzk's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Québec
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 7,255
The more I read this thread, the less I am convinced that Pentax will move into FF anytime soon. (personal opinion ... not a debate)
Quoting some members' posts: "the upcoming announcement" of the Kr and K5 ... etc. This means that we still are talking APS-C.
So, what if this K5/Kr is indeed the major hit at Photokina? Can we assume that this will be a definite replacement for the K7? Or something in between the Kx and the K7 with minor tweaks? Does that really pave the way for FF in the not-so-distant future?

Lots of questions which I suppose will be answered soon enough during September
at the Photokina 2010 event.

JP
08-15-2010, 10:00 AM   #413
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 5,794
QuoteOriginally posted by youky63 Quote
I just did. Here: Bildqualität | Testberichte | dkamera.de | Das Digitalkamera-Magazin
More exactly GH1 vs 550D (same sensor than 7D) since there is no 7D. I compared many settings, day light, night light, all in RAW (process jpeg don't say anything about processor results) and I see: about 2 stops advantage for the Canon. Not kidding!
Another example?
DxO found less than 1/3 of a stop difference.

Comparison with a similar pixel pitch sensor: Canon EOS 7D

SNR 18%

Obviously the Canon 7D’s performance is similar to the G1’s at ISO settings up to 800, and similar to the GH1’s at ISO settings from 3200. The GH1 outperforms the 7D for ISO settings up to 800.

Color sensitivityThe GH1 outperforms both the G1 and 7D at ISO settings up to 800; over ISO 800, GH1 and 7D performances are similar.


Dynamic RangeThe 7D and GH1 have similar performances, and both outperform the G1 by more than 1 stop.

08-15-2010, 10:25 AM   #414
Veteran Member
falconeye's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Munich, Alps, Germany
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,863
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by jpzk Quote
Lots of questions which I suppose will be answered soon enough during September at the Photokina 2010 event.
The K-5 will be APSC with higher price and some better specs than K-7 and both, K-7 and K-5 will sell side by side for some time.

This is known already.

The reason why I wrote my article is that questions which I feel need an urgent answer are not being answered at Photokina 2010.

And of course, to excercise a bit of pressure onto Pentax to meet common expectations (like yours) and do provide some answers at least.


To speak only for myself ... The K-5 is not an answer to a question which I did ask. Nevertheless, I hope and feel the K-5 will be a great camera of course. After all, better AF, better high ISO and better dynamic range are high on the list of many (even myself although for the time being I enjoy my K-7 as it is)
08-15-2010, 10:54 AM   #415
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,922
QuoteOriginally posted by youky63 Quote
I just did. Here: Bildqualität | Testberichte | dkamera.de | Das Digitalkamera-Magazin
More exactly GH1 vs 550D (same sensor than 7D) since there is no 7D. I compared many settings, day light, night light, all in RAW (process jpeg don't say anything about processor results) and I see: about 2 stops advantage for the Canon. Not kidding!
Another example?
No only that, but the DR was vastly superior. 4/3's Achilles' heel is DR as well as overall resolution.

4/3 stays in the game by dropping prices massively.
08-15-2010, 11:32 AM   #416
Veteran Member




Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 410
QuoteOriginally posted by ismaelg Quote
If you asked me a year ago, or even just a few months ago, I would have told you I would drink molten lead before even considering looking at any other brand. But today, I'm lurking into the used market for 5D1 with 24-105 L glass. I fear I'm not alone.
You are totally not alone. There are a number of members who are thinking like this. After all its a point of this thread, made by Falk.

If you had not, please participate in my poll so we can see where we are after Photokina:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/non-pentax-cameras-canon-nikon-etc/100566...me-exodus.html
08-15-2010, 12:24 PM   #417
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 5,794
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
No only that, but the DR was vastly superior. 4/3's Achilles' heel is DR as well as overall resolution.

4/3 stays in the game by dropping prices massively.
Have you actually looked at the DxO tests?

The GH1 even outperforms a hypothetical four-thirds sensor cut from a (wider) Canon EOS 7D sensor (with the same pixel size). With its 50% larger sensor surface (corresponding to 9 DxOMark Sensor points), one would expect the 7D to have outperformed the GH1 by 9 points. Instead, it achieves a DxOMark score of 64.9 — only slightly more than 1 point above the GH1’s score of 63.6.


The DR of the GH1 is "vastly superior" to the K-7, and very, very close the the 7D. The GH1 is the oldest of the three & the smallest of the three. The K-7 has the largest of the three and yet it is the poorest performing sensor of the three.....
08-15-2010, 12:58 PM   #418
Veteran Member
ManuH's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,209
QuoteOriginally posted by ismaelg Quote
But today, I'm lurking into the used market for 5D1 with 24-105 L glass. I fear I'm not alone.
To gain what exactly? You don't get more resolution, 5D1 is 12MP. You don't get more high ISO performance because you settle on a f/4 lens. Ergonomics are sub-par. The only thing you may gain is the bigger VF (not 100% though). This set-up doesn't interest me that much.
08-15-2010, 03:07 PM   #419
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: GMT +10
Photos: Albums
Posts: 10,826
QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
To gain what exactly? You don't get more resolution, 5D1 is 12MP. You don't get more high ISO performance because you settle on a f/4 lens. Ergonomics are sub-par. The only thing you may gain is the bigger VF (not 100% though). This set-up doesn't interest me that much.
You are being too logical! Cut that out at once. Logic has no place in this discussion.
08-15-2010, 03:18 PM   #420
music_lover
Guest




QuoteOriginally posted by weikle Quote
i guess that pentax will still stay silent to FF at Photokina,maybe they think the FF system have not profit enough to support manufacture for pentax.The sales of Sony A850/900 are not that good,but Sony have cash flow enough to support it,however,it's difficult for Hoya to do that.
Better read this then:
Pentax representative: Full frame Pentax DSLR in 2010 | Photo Rumors
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
frame, k-5, lenses, mystery, pentax, pentax news, pentax rumors, photokina, release
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Full frame pentax cem.kumuk Pentax DSLR Discussion 11 11-12-2010 03:13 PM
I think the Pentax FF will be announced at Photokina 2010 whatever7 Pentax News and Rumors 106 02-04-2010 12:45 AM
Expired Theme Theme: Contest #41, January, 2010 (Frame within a Frame) Adam Monthly Photo Contests 11 01-21-2010 12:33 AM
The almost full frame Pentax? denisv Photographic Technique 44 01-19-2009 04:01 AM
New Pentax k18D - Full Frame ebooks4pentax Pentax DSLR Discussion 17 10-31-2007 05:46 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:56 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top