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08-16-2010, 07:08 AM   #451
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
But it cannot be about maximising profits only, can it? If that were the sole goal Pentax should specialise in credit default swaps or similar.

I believe there will always be a market for enthusiast and professional photographers. Prices may go up if manufacturing numbers go down but a brand like Pentax should stay true to its competences rather than following the lure of highest profit.
It's should be about maximizing long term profits, not short term profits. Capitalism only WORKS when everyone is attempting to maximize their LONG term profits, because it's the most profitable, long term, for everyone to make what they are best at making in a natural monopoly, and no negative effects can occur because everyone controls everyone else's supply chain. In a non-utopian dreamworld, though, it's still best to maximize long term profitability, which involves BOTH protecting the strength of the brand AND improving the quality of the product, while effectively marketing it, and pricing appropriately.

Short term rush to market high profit items can be short term wins and long term economic anchors, if you cannibalize your good will and product qualities for those windfall profits.

They've got to do both. They NEED to establish themselves as a "safe" choice for new camera buyers. You have to have a customer base to make profits because you can maximize them, of course. They also NEED to market to the high end and keep long term loyal repeat customers buying, and establish their new customers as evolving repeat customers.

08-16-2010, 07:53 AM   #452
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But think of it this way. Both Canikon market their P&S lines hard. Lots of cool features etc. What that does, is get the buyer on that brand. Pentax needs a visible brand that the consumer is aware of. Right now they only really consider 2 brands.

So your first camera is a Coolpix with a ton of neat features. Over a bit of time, you may decide to get a DSLR. Are you going to look at Nikon's cameras, or some other brand first? Most likely Nikon, if they did their job right on the Coolpix.

It has to be about profits. That's what allows a company to do is, R&D, marketing, increase distribution and any number of things.

They may never build a FF camera but they really need to have a solid P&S line that is marketed and more than 2 DSLR's at any given time that are logical steps. Have a KM, K-X, K200 and K-7 with something above that. 4 or 5 different cameras to suit the competition. Even if that means carrying over models from the last generation and not dropping both the price and model so fast. Who says the lifespan of a camera is 12-18 months?

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
But it cannot be about maximizing profits only, can it? If that were the sole goal Pentax should specialise in credit default swaps or similar.

I believe there will always be a market for enthusiast and professional photographers. Prices may go up if manufacturing numbers go down but a brand like Pentax should stay true to its competences rather than following the lure of highest profit.
08-16-2010, 08:35 AM   #453
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QuoteQuote:
It's the roadmap which is required, not an immediate product. Faith in the future.
+1

Up to now, no Pentax FF-DSLR can be bought. Thus, such an announcement cannot lower sales in the non-existing FF-segment. On the other hand, a Pentax FF with special features could create interest among Canon, Nikon and Sony users. An advantage the latter manufacturers do not have. Pentax relied on a similar strategy with the 645D. Imho, it would also work out with a FF model:
  • Pentax should officially state that they are working on a FF-DSLR.
  • A specified release date would not be needed, just a statement like "we will build it, when we can offer it at a price tag of xxxx /$"
  • Show a mockup version at Photokina 2010 and ask for feedback / specification wishlists from potential buyers (see below) -> attract interest
  • Create a homepage with a preorder option (pay $200-500 and get the first cameras with nametag / special serial number / color, maybe with a possibility to test alpha models)
  • Ensure full / best / maximal compatibility with all legacy glass (especially old full frame lenses) -> confidence, consistency, compatibility: the Pentax virtues
  • Reintroduce the uncrippled KAF2 mount (aperture coupler...)
08-16-2010, 08:37 AM   #454
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Second: it is not about keepers. This is the 21st century; no-one wants to keep anything any more.
The philosoph in me cannot but notice the appearant paradox in this sentence. Because by definition, still photography is about to keep the moment, to freeze time.

If you think it thru, still photography for the sole purpose to share (rather than to keep) is an intermediate phenomenon until bandwidth doesn't penalize video anymore.

Then again, still photography will be about eternity -- to keep the moment and to leave traces beyound the short span of our lifes.

08-16-2010, 08:51 AM   #455
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
To make you feel the heat ...

I firmly see $200 SLD cameras with automatic functions for panorama creation, aligning multiexposure features (HDR, emptying places from crowds, low noise, handheld soft water), portrait beautifying functions, macro focus stacking, fast contrast AF even for macro shots, supreme video features (actually merging the segment with camcorders), in camera photo and video editing, fast readout with software-stabilized video and still, and much more to list here....
My cousin just showed me his Samsung Wave phone with a 5Mp camera. It already does a lot of what you are describing, but in much more consumer-friendly terms. And most importantly for today's connected generation - it's got social media apps like Facebook. Very few P&S cameras have any networking abilities, and the idea of taking a photo and downloading it to your computer just to upload it to Facebook is soooo 2008.

It used to be that the path to an SLR was:
Disposable
Point & Shoot
SLR

It's a very different world now:
Phone
???
dSLR

What fills the gap between phone and dSLR is where the battle will be waged...
08-16-2010, 08:57 AM   #456
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QuoteOriginally posted by Vaikis_ Quote
wait till photokina, Pentax will pull a big rabbit, believe me !!! You all would be suprised, can't tell more
First in the world FF EVIL?
08-16-2010, 09:07 AM   #457
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
For a Facebook photo, almost any recent main brand P&S will do. Do you think most people who buy a DSLR use AE-L? No, they buy on spec, and a great many over-purchase. If Canon comes out with a FF body that rivals the $1,500 price range, people will buy it simply because it is "bigger" and "better" than the other guy's "smaller" APS-C sensor.
You have some good points but I think you are overestimating the number of people who will pay upwards of $1000 for a camera. I spent that much on my K10D and that represented several years of savings to buy it. I really believe that (in the US) the $1000 barrier looms pretty large and that a substantial majority of people will not go above it. I don't know if the same holds for the 1000 barrier in the UK or the €1000 barrier in Europe but I think it might. This is why the bestsellers from Canon and Nikon are the assorted Rebels, the D3000 and the D5000 and why Pentax has had success with the K-x. I would hazard a guess that Canon and Nikon sell more of the lowest end dSLR than all their high end cameras combined and I am sure Pentax sells more K-x than K7's.

I don't think there is room in the marketplace for any more high priced cameras (witness Sony and their lack of success with the Alpha 900, 700 and 850) but I do think there is a lot of room for a quality low priced dSLR or EV camera and I think that is where the second and third tier manufacturers are going.
08-16-2010, 09:07 AM   #458
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
First in the world FF EVIL?
No, large frame EVIL. You hang from a manhole on the top of the mirrorless chamber (aka mirror box for an SLR) and look at the reflected live image on the digital sensor. You hang to see the image upright

A very big rabbit indeed.

08-16-2010, 09:14 AM   #459
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QuoteOriginally posted by froeschle Quote
[ Up to now, no Pentax FF-DSLR can be bought. Thus, such an announcement cannot lower sales in the non-existing FF-segment.

No, it couldn't kill FF DSLR sales, but it COULD kill sales of APS-C lenses. I would think that anyone who was considering buying an upper-end APS-C lens, might have to stop and re-think things if they knew a FF camera was coming.
08-16-2010, 09:49 AM   #460
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
No, it couldn't kill FF DSLR sales, but it COULD kill sales of APS-C lenses. I would think that anyone who was considering buying an upper-end APS-C lens, might have to stop and re-think things if they knew a FF camera was coming.
I think that already happens to some point.

My last purchases were a DA* 300mm and a D-FA 100mm WR Macro. Thanks to this forum I knew beforehand that the DA*300 should be okay with a full-frame camera.

The only other two lenses that exist right now I'm considering would be a FA 31 Limited and a DA* 200mm. Well, the other FA limiteds would be a consideration as well if a full-frame body actually existed and I owned one (or maybe the DA* 55mm SDM for a quite setup). 50mm range seems so popular, but I just don't like it much on APS-C.

Offhand I think the only lens I use much that isn't full-frame able is the 10-17mm fisheye.

It's not like I want to see APS-C die, it has quite a few benefits over full-frame (telephoto, body size), it's just that I could see different uses for my existing glass with a FF body.
08-16-2010, 09:53 AM   #461
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Point and shoots are dying. The newest Droid phones have 8 megapixel cameras with flash on them. why would you "upgrade" from such a camera to a point and shoot. for the extra megapixels? I would rather forsee people using camera phones and then moving up to Bridge cameras/EVIL cameras/low end SLR if they aren't satisfied.

As to what is adequate for the average individual, it is hard to say. I was at a fairly dark museum the other day and saw no cameras, but lots of cell phones that people were using to take photos. What they will look like is anyone's guess, but I doubt they will be works of art.

All this is to say that I think if Pentax has to choose between full frame and EVIL, then I think they should work on EVIL first and put full frame off for a little while. Consider dropping point and shoots altogether.
08-16-2010, 10:12 AM   #462
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Point and shoots are dying.
I dunno, not what I observed till now, at least.
The problem, and consumers seems to be aware of this, is that you can't realisticaly use a phone for taking pictures in holidays, your battery would be killed after 50 pics and unable to receive calls once depleted.

Phone can be very handy for quick pics in everyday life but that's it.
08-16-2010, 10:26 AM   #463
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6 Endangered Tech Species

6-endangered-tech-species: Personal Finance News from Yahoo! Finance

"Digital Cameras

With Android phones up to 8 megapixels and the iPhone 4 boasting pixel-free resolution at 5 megapixels, even the digital-camera industry sees the impending slowdown."
08-16-2010, 10:44 AM   #464
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
you can't realisticaly use a phone for taking pictures in holidays, your battery would be killed after 50 pics and unable to receive calls once depleted.
You can.
iPhone 4 takes 1090 images (assuming taking one image every 10s) before the battery is depleted. And it recharges in the car while serving as your nav system
08-16-2010, 11:13 AM   #465
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I'm wondering if maybe pentax will turn the aps-c line into EVIL cameras being able to fully utilise the current line up as I don't see them designing much new glass unless maybe the evil is much smaller than anticipated and then maybe they will introduce a full frame line at a later date will some faster full frame glass?

Anyone fancy messaging me
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