Photokina 2010, Pentax and the full frame mystery

GeneV · 08-16-2010, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

It's evidence of photography, and show's the medium's versatility. In this case it's as useful as a ballpoint pen on a notepad as gathering evidence. The advantage of the cameraphone is the phone. But you lose an awful lot of visual clarity on these devices. I cannot see much real forensic evidence gathering done on these devices, in part because of the compromised chain of evidence.

I am a lawyer and while I prefer better photos, this is what I often get from my clients. Again, it is not good photography, but it is used every single day in court for photos of people and of places.

Chain of evidence is not a relevant concept for accepting photos into evidence. In most states, admission as evidence only requires a witness to testify that the photo is an accurate representation of what he saw.

Winder · 08-16-2010, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by falconeye

Most of us use cell phone cameras too. It's not about people. It's about activities. What you describe is life logging, as I call it. We're just seeing the beginnings. I would not call this activity "photographing". But this forum is about photography.

I'm not sure why you are attributing that quote to me. I did not make that comment.

mysterick · 08-16-2010, 06:57 PM

OT: I finally made it through this convoluted albeit kind-of-interesting thread.

glanglois · 08-16-2010, 07:49 PM

Add'l OT: We should at least get a T shirt commemorating the event.

deejjjaaaa · 08-16-2010, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by youky63

and I see: about 2 stops advantage for the Canon.

Not kidding!

some people @ LL "see" that MF has 6 stops advantage in DR over Nikon D3s...

Class A · 08-16-2010, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by Vaikis_

wait till photokina, Pentax will pull a big rabbit, believe me !!! You all would be suprised, can't tell more

The viewfinder will overlay under- and over-exposure blinkies over the image on the focussing screen. Play with the dials and see the blinkies adapt until you are happy. Live histograms will be so yesterday.

Anything less than this and I'll be disappointed.

ogl · 08-17-2010, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by Vaikis_

wait till photokina, Pentax will pull a big rabbit, believe me !!! You all would be suprised, can't tell more

low-end MF camera instead of FF...

rawr · 08-17-2010, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by ogl

low-end MF camera instead of FF...

That would be interesting. A 645D-Lite, for USD$2000.

I'd buy one.

falconeye · 08-17-2010, 02:01 AM

Originally posted by Winder

I'm not sure why you are attributing that quote to me. I did not make that comment.

I quoted rparmar. I've no idea what happened. Thanks for spotting this.

Originally posted by Class A

Live histograms will be so yesterday.

In this thread, I learned that this is expressed as "sooo 2008"

BTW, when saying I wouldn't call life logging "photography", I exaggerated. But obviously, it made me bring my point across

gazonk · 08-17-2010, 04:15 AM

Originally posted by ogl

low-end MF camera instead of FF...

I've wondered about if this would make sense. I think it makes sense if the camera could be made a little more compact and lighter than the current 645D. I.e. look even more like a conventional DSLR and not weigh more than e.g. D3X. When the announced super-wide is added to the 645 lens range, it covers most needs.

Class A · 08-17-2010, 04:30 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

In this thread, I learned that this is expressed as "sooo 2008"

I see.

Originally posted by gazonk

I've wondered about if this would make sense.

Not that much for those with a number of FF lenses rather than 645 lenses...

gazonk · 08-17-2010, 05:03 AM

Originally posted by Class A

Not that much for those with a number of FF lenses rather than 645 lenses...

The question is whether it makes sense for Pentax - and they want you to buy lenses, not reuse old ones.

Class A · 08-17-2010, 05:46 AM

Originally posted by gazonk

The question is whether it makes sense for Pentax

It won't make sense for Pentax if it doesn't make sense for customers.

Originally posted by gazonk

- and they want you to buy lenses, not reuse old ones.

Some things aren't going to happen, no matter how much someone wants them.

gazonk · 08-17-2010, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by Class A

It won't make sense for Pentax if it doesn't make sense for customers.

I wonder: How many of the few current and the numerous old Pentax lenses would actually work well on digital 24x36?

wolfier · 08-17-2010, 08:21 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

But do you agree that spending $12000++ is getting quite close?

Would you list how a person would spend $12000++ on FF equipments? Let's start with a 5D mk II body that is $2500.

Quote:

We all know the K-7 isn't that great at high ISO. Next model is supposed to be better; much better.
I was talking about the K-x, though - exactly for this reason.

Hope the next body is at least a stop better than K-x at ISO 6400 both in terms of DR and noise, without losing details due to NR.
To me, usable high ISO means getting decent 8x12 indoor shots at ISO 3200 to 5000 with NR turned off.

Quote:

You're talking as if the D3S could somehow be compared with the 645D...

If not in terms of resolution, a 5D mk II certainly can be compared. 21 vs 40 over an increased area of 1.25x is not a lot - even with large, large prints, this difference is easily eclipsed by any small difference in lens quality.

In terms of high ISO, from the 645D samples I've seen, I'm quite sure it will not perform as well as a D3s at ISO 12800, if it even has this setting.

At base ISO, the 645D probably will have the D3s soundly beat, though.

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08-16-2010, 03:37 PM	#481
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by Aristophanes It's evidence of photography, and show's the medium's versatility. In this case it's as useful as a ballpoint pen on a notepad as gathering evidence. The advantage of the cameraphone is the phone. But you lose an awful lot of visual clarity on these devices. I cannot see much real forensic evidence gathering done on these devices, in part because of the compromised chain of evidence. I am a lawyer and while I prefer better photos, this is what I often get from my clients. Again, it is not good photography, but it is used every single day in court for photos of people and of places. Chain of evidence is not a relevant concept for accepting photos into evidence. In most states, admission as evidence only requires a witness to testify that the photo is an accurate representation of what he saw.

08-16-2010, 06:31 PM	#482
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by falconeye Most of us use cell phone cameras too. It's not about people. It's about activities. What you describe is life logging, as I call it. We're just seeing the beginnings. I would not call this activity "photographing". But this forum is about photography. I'm not sure why you are attributing that quote to me. I did not make that comment.

08-16-2010, 06:57 PM	#483
mysterick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: 44266 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 567	OT: I finally made it through this convoluted albeit kind-of-interesting thread.

08-16-2010, 07:49 PM	#484
glanglois Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Madison, Wis., USA Posts: 1,506	Add'l OT: We should at least get a T shirt commemorating the event.

08-16-2010, 08:41 PM	#485
deejjjaaaa Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: steel city / rust belt Posts: 2,043	Originally posted by youky63 and I see: about 2 stops advantage for the Canon. Not kidding! some people @ LL "see" that MF has 6 stops advantage in DR over Nikon D3s...

08-16-2010, 08:45 PM	#486
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by Vaikis_ wait till photokina, Pentax will pull a big rabbit, believe me !!! You all would be suprised, can't tell more The viewfinder will overlay under- and over-exposure blinkies over the image on the focussing screen. Play with the dials and see the blinkies adapt until you are happy. Live histograms will be so yesterday. Anything less than this and I'll be disappointed.

08-17-2010, 12:45 AM	#487
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by Vaikis_ wait till photokina, Pentax will pull a big rabbit, believe me !!! You all would be suprised, can't tell more low-end MF camera instead of FF...

08-17-2010, 01:20 AM	#488
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by ogl low-end MF camera instead of FF... That would be interesting. A 645D-Lite, for USD$2000. I'd buy one.

08-17-2010, 02:01 AM	#489
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871 Original Poster	Originally posted by Winder I'm not sure why you are attributing that quote to me. I did not make that comment. I quoted rparmar. I've no idea what happened. Thanks for spotting this. Originally posted by Class A Live histograms will be so yesterday. In this thread, I learned that this is expressed as "sooo 2008" BTW, when saying I wouldn't call life logging "photography", I exaggerated. But obviously, it made me bring my point across

08-17-2010, 04:15 AM	#490
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by ogl low-end MF camera instead of FF... I've wondered about if this would make sense. I think it makes sense if the camera could be made a little more compact and lighter than the current 645D. I.e. look even more like a conventional DSLR and not weigh more than e.g. D3X. When the announced super-wide is added to the 645 lens range, it covers most needs.

08-17-2010, 04:30 AM	#491
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by falconeye In this thread, I learned that this is expressed as "sooo 2008" I see. Originally posted by gazonk I've wondered about if this would make sense. Not that much for those with a number of FF lenses rather than 645 lenses...

08-17-2010, 05:03 AM	#492
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by Class A Not that much for those with a number of FF lenses rather than 645 lenses... The question is whether it makes sense for Pentax - and they want you to buy lenses, not reuse old ones.

08-17-2010, 05:46 AM	#493
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by gazonk The question is whether it makes sense for Pentax It won't make sense for Pentax if it doesn't make sense for customers. Originally posted by gazonk - and they want you to buy lenses, not reuse old ones. Some things aren't going to happen, no matter how much someone wants them.

08-17-2010, 08:09 AM	#494
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by Class A It won't make sense for Pentax if it doesn't make sense for customers. I wonder: How many of the few current and the numerous old Pentax lenses would actually work well on digital 24x36?

08-17-2010, 08:21 AM	#495
wolfier Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 123	Originally posted by Kunzite But do you agree that spending $12000++ is getting quite close? Would you list how a person would spend $12000++ on FF equipments? Let's start with a 5D mk II body that is $2500. Quote: We all know the K-7 isn't that great at high ISO. Next model is supposed to be better; much better. I was talking about the K-x, though - exactly for this reason. Hope the next body is at least a stop better than K-x at ISO 6400 both in terms of DR and noise, without losing details due to NR. To me, usable high ISO means getting decent 8x12 indoor shots at ISO 3200 to 5000 with NR turned off. Quote: You're talking as if the D3S could somehow be compared with the 645D... If not in terms of resolution, a 5D mk II certainly can be compared. 21 vs 40 over an increased area of 1.25x is not a lot - even with large, large prints, this difference is easily eclipsed by any small difference in lens quality. In terms of high ISO, from the 645D samples I've seen, I'm quite sure it will not perform as well as a D3s at ISO 12800, if it even has this setting. At base ISO, the 645D probably will have the D3s soundly beat, though.