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08-17-2010, 08:54 AM   #496
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Wolfier, the discussion was quite old - no wonder that you've missed the flow of arguments.
The $12000++ figure belong to Peter Zack, not to me. Of course I don't believe that Pentax would suddenly start selling a lot of $12000++ "FF" kits, if Pentax would launch a FF camera.

No, no, no. I won't fall into this trap - considering every factor an insignificant one, then concluding it's more or less the same. It isn't. It doesn't work that way.
The difference, IMHO, is huge; and you'd be hard pressed to find a Pentax 645 lens bad enough to make it disappear (who would buy such a lens anyway?).
Btw, the area difference is ~1.68x, not 1.25 (larger sensors could be used in the future, e.g. the already available 50MP Kodak)

In terms of high ISO... well, the 645D is not a high ISO machine. You can't have both - outstanding quality (at "normal" ISO) and crazy usable high-ISO values.

08-17-2010, 08:56 AM   #497
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
I wonder: How many of the few current and the numerous old Pentax lenses would actually work well on digital 24x36?
99% I think. FF has lower demand for resolution of lens. The problem is just ultra-wide lenses.
08-17-2010, 09:49 AM   #498
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Photozone.de tested the Nikkor 85 f/1.4. High resolving power in the center, very low on borders/corners (of course, that "little disappointing" fault had to be downplayed in order not to upset the Nikonians...).
That's not a cheap lens; not a wide, either.
08-17-2010, 10:18 AM   #499
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
low-end MF camera instead of FF...

Just wonder why you put 'Freak' in Chinese on your logo?

08-17-2010, 10:23 AM   #500
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Photozone.de tested the Nikkor 85 f/1.4. High resolving power in the center, very low on borders/corners (of course, that "little disappointing" fault had to be downplayed in order not to upset the Nikonians...).
That's not a cheap lens; not a wide, either.
In defense of Photozone, there point was that an 85/1.4 is a portrait lens and therefore border resolution is less important than, say, an ultra-wide. I completely agree with them.

The lens certainly didn't receive the same score as the Canon 85/1.2 however.
08-17-2010, 10:43 AM   #501
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Old Lenses

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Photozone.de tested the Nikkor 85 f/1.4. High resolving power in the center, very low on borders/corners (of course, that "little disappointing" fault had to be downplayed in order not to upset the Nikonians...).
That's not a cheap lens; not a wide, either.

If you want to pixel peep, the new Pentax 645D with the new D-FA 55 2.8 shows a lot of CA when the images are blown up. You can check the image samples here:

645D Manza Hotel | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

The highlights in the clouds are somewhat blown and the windows of the hotel show chromatic aberration.

There are a ton of EXCELLENT photographs taken on FullFrame Cameras, (Nikon D700, Canon 5D, Canon 5D MKII, Sony A 850, Sony A 900) with old M42 lenses and even K mount lenses (Canon EOS mount will accept both M42 and Pentax K-Mount lenses with the proper adapter). Just do a simple image search on Flickr.

http://www.flickr.com/

(Use sound search criteria like the name of the camera and the lens. (i.e. {Canon 5D Takumar}
pulls up images taken on both FullFrame Canon 5D and 5D MKII DSLR's as well as any Takumar lens.)

I've posted some image examples of legacy glass on FullFrame cameras in some of my older posts. I have a friend with a Canon 5D MKII that gets great results from old S-M-C Takumars on his camera. Are the results flawless? No, you don't get completely flawless images even with new digital lenses. The old lenses do deliver great images and have awesome aesthetic value. Competent post processing can easily remove chromatic aberration and sharpening can be selectively applied.

You can also check Vimeo.com for excellent examples of videos made on DSLR's using old glass. I saw a great one the other day using Canon DSLR and a single coated Helios 44 (Russian Biotar clone)!

Vimeo, Video Sharing For You

Last edited by Angevinn; 08-17-2010 at 10:49 AM.
08-17-2010, 10:54 AM   #502
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Photozone.de tested the Nikkor 85 f/1.4. High resolving power in the center, very low on borders/corners...

The decisive question is whether the lens would perform as poorly along the borders with film. The lens may have poor border performance, irrespective of whether the images it produces are saved digitally or with film.
08-17-2010, 10:57 AM   #503
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Angevinn: A lot of CA? What are you talking about?

Please note, I haven't said that an old lens won't work properly/would necessarily have image quality issues. But it also won't necessarily works great. IMO, we can only judge them on a case-by-case basis.
I believe, though, that olg's 99% figure (which effectively means all of them but 2) is way off. Don't you?

08-17-2010, 11:26 AM   #504
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Angevinn: A lot of CA? What are you talking about?

Please note, I haven't said that an old lens won't work properly/would necessarily have image quality issues. But it also won't necessarily works great. IMO, we can only judge them on a case-by-case basis.
I believe, though, that olg's 99% figure (which effectively means all of them but 2) is way off. Don't you?
If you have a look to all the tests made by photozone on FF lenses (Canon and Nikon) you'll see that :
Most of wide angles (< 50 mm) are low rated(2 to 3 stars); weak borders, 2 and even 3 stops of falloff (Canon 24mm, 35mm, Nikon 16-35)
Tele lenses are OK
Modern design zooms are OK too (Canon 14, Nikon 12-24)
So it is a mixed bag
08-17-2010, 11:42 AM   #505
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote

In terms of high ISO... well, the 645D is not a high ISO machine. You can't have both - outstanding quality (at "normal" ISO) and crazy usable high-ISO values.
Though with the 645d, couldn't you have both as compared to APS-c? You could have a sensor with the pixel qualities of the 12mp FF sensor, but larger than FF so that there are more pixels of resolution to the total image.
08-17-2010, 12:06 PM   #506
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QuoteOriginally posted by goubejp Quote
If you have a look to all the tests made by photozone on FF lenses (Canon and Nikon) you'll see that :
Most of wide angles (< 50 mm) are low rated(2 to 3 stars); weak borders, 2 and even 3 stops of falloff (Canon 24mm, 35mm, Nikon 16-35)
Tele lenses are OK
Modern design zooms are OK too (Canon 14, Nikon 12-24)
So it is a mixed bag
Remember when Ned Bunnell chimed in about the capabilities of older FF glass on FF digital sensors? And the need to redesign an FF lens array?

There ya go.

I have used the Nikon 12-24. With that lens, you don't need WA primes. It's that sharp, minimal falloff, etc. Phenomenal lens for decades worth of amazing photos. It's big, that's the downside.
08-17-2010, 01:14 PM   #507
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
In terms of high ISO... well, the 645D is not a high ISO machine. You can't have both - outstanding quality (at "normal" ISO) and crazy usable high-ISO values.
I'm not sure I agree with the second half of that -- for good high-ISO images, you want a sensor with high conversion efficiency, low noise, and good dynamic range. And for high-quality low-ISO images you want, well, some of the same things.

The sensor in the 645D doesn't excel at high ISO, that's true. But I don't think you can infer that the two qualities are exclusive based on that.
08-17-2010, 01:44 PM   #508
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Of course, it would be best to have both. But I believe nothing can be gained without a cost. The AF cost was a good viewfinder. A 10fps camera is very noisy. The reflex viewfinder puts limits on the (wide) lens design.
How about pursuing insanely high ISO numbers? Would the low ISO image quality be affected, e.g. by going with CMOS? I have a feeling, it would.
08-17-2010, 02:00 PM   #509
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Remember when Ned Bunnell chimed in about the capabilities of older FF glass on FF digital sensors? And the need to redesign an FF lens array?

There ya go.

I have used the Nikon 12-24. With that lens, you don't need WA primes. It's that sharp, minimal falloff, etc. Phenomenal lens for decades worth of amazing photos. It's big, that's the downside.
Others downsides : no possibility to use filter - prone to flare; I prefer my DA 15 limited
Yes I remember well Ned about the need to redesign lenses for full frame; lateral CA, longitudinal CA... have to be corrected now. More even sharpness is required too; see Nikon that have redesigned the 70-210 for FF
08-17-2010, 02:39 PM   #510
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QuoteOriginally posted by dopeytree Quote
I'm wondering if maybe pentax will turn the aps-c line into EVIL cameras being able to fully utilise the current line up as I don't see them designing much new glass unless maybe the evil is much smaller than anticipated and then maybe they will introduce a full frame line at a later date will some faster full frame glass?

Anyone fancy messaging me
This may be the way....

APS-C for EVIL
FF for dSLR

Until the transition is complete, Pentax can continue to sell K-x and it's successors to fill in the entry level and the K-7 and it's successors to fill in the middle range. In other words... for the near term...

Entry: APS-C K-x (and successors)
Mid: APS-C EVIL and K-7 (and successors)
High: FF
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