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08-19-2010, 08:06 AM   #541
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
If the lens covers the sensor, then who cares whether it's APS-C, APS-H, or FF? It makes no difference.
It may not matter for long lenses but for the standard zoom and wide angles you have to start all over each time a new crop appears. Having a non mainstream crop means fewer third-party support. Look at the four thirds situation. The situation is already not perfect with Pentax, so an APS-H option would kill them. OTOH a Pentax FF would have many good standard zooms readily available.

08-19-2010, 08:20 AM   #542
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Pentax should have went with APS-H in the K-7. I have said this before it would set the K-7 above it's competition like the 7D and the D300. It would give Pentax an advantage for semi-Pro photographers to consider and discerning serious amateurs.

Why wouldn't Samsung want to produce an APS-H sensor for Pentax. They already only supply sensors to Pentax as it is. APS-H is a great compromise between Full Frame and APS-C. It will help keep the camera compact but provide a larger view finder. There will be no argument that the low end camera line has a better sensor than the high end camera line.

APS-H is a great way for Pentax to create a needed edge without having a camera that is way outside most peoples price range. Did any one notice the prices for those new Nikon full frame lenses. Why outside the budget of the majority of users at Pentax Forums. People complain about the price of Pentax lenses now as though they are to expensive.

It only makes complete sense that if you are going to have three camera lines a low end, Semi-Pro and Pro using different sized sensors for each line actually sets them apart from one another in an image quality way.
08-19-2010, 08:31 AM   #543
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
It may not matter for long lenses but for the standard zoom and wide angles you have to start all over each time a new crop appears.
No, you don't have to start all over. That's just crazy. I didn't have to start over with my lens collection when I went from FF film to APS-C. I only had to add to it to get an equivalent coverage on the wide angle end of things.
08-19-2010, 09:13 AM   #544
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
It may not matter for long lenses but for the standard zoom and wide angles you have to start all over each time a new crop appears. Having a non mainstream crop means fewer third-party support. Look at the four thirds situation. The situation is already not perfect with Pentax, so an APS-H option would kill them. OTOH a Pentax FF would have many good standard zooms readily available.
None of that is relevant. 3rd party lens makers are going to make lenses for Nikon and Canon FF and then introduce mounts for Sony, Pentax, & Olympus bases on projected sales. It does not matter what format Pentax decides to use as long as it is covered by the FF image circle.

08-19-2010, 10:18 AM   #545
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Somebody wrote and wondered why so many seem to get hurt by letting the people who want the FF get it!

I say, if an FF or an EVIL arrives instead of an improved successor to the K-7, it will hurt me, yes. But if all of them come, let go! Then I will be happy! Better high ISO, more reliable SDM. and more reliable AF is all I wish and need. If Santa Claus is kind enough to reward me long time before Xmas, I will for sure dance around wildly! And we will have a camera 100% suitable for pro work! Could anything else mean more in the real world?
08-19-2010, 10:39 AM   #546
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I've just been saving my cash for some time now. Photokina is, as far as Pentax and I go, do or die. If I can get a Pentax body to rival a 7D I might consider it, otherwise I'll continue to save to switch to Canon. A FF Pentax for 7D money would have my undivided attention, because all but my kit lenses are FF ones.

If all they launch is an EVIL, it'll be end of the road . .
08-19-2010, 10:40 AM   #547
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The only APS-C lenses I purchased were to get back the wide angle field of view I had with FF(film), so bring on FF so my 28mm is a wide angle once again.

I would love a FF sensor with the same pixel count as the K-7 for high ISO with less grain(noise), kind of like the Nikon D700.

Tom
08-19-2010, 02:15 PM   #548
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
Why wouldn't Samsung want to produce an APS-H sensor for Pentax. They already only supply sensors to Pentax as it is.
Because nobody is making (designing) sensors for Pentax... selling sensors to Pentax, yes - but designwise Pentax is not worth the effort... not even Kodak w/ KAF40000, albeit if Pentax will sell the claimed amount of 645D then Kodak might start actually modify the designs (done for gov't) for Pentax needs and not for PhaseOne/Hasselblad types... So Samsung was making the sensor for itself in the first place and naturally they wanted to be able to sell more APS-C sensors and stop using Sony sensors than sell less of APS-H sensors and still rely on Sony for APS-C cameras... and if Samsung was/is capable to design 2 lines - they'd probably spent the dime on APS-C and FF and not on APS-C and APS-H... ask yourself why Sony does not make ASP-H sensors and Sony can do that much easily than Samsung.

08-19-2010, 03:09 PM - 1 Like   #549
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
It may not matter for long lenses but for the standard zoom and wide angles you have to start all over each time a new crop appears. Having a non mainstream crop means fewer third-party support. Look at the four thirds situation. The situation is already not perfect with Pentax, so an APS-H option would kill them. OTOH a Pentax FF would have many good standard zooms readily available.
Not really. APS-H is fine with lenses that cover the FF image circle. Nothing new would need to be made. We already have the FA Limiteds and the DFA 100 Macro WR; and we know that all the DA* lenses except the 16-50 and 50-135 cover the FF image circle perfectly. Even those two, I believe, aren't that far off from FF coverage, ad would likely be fine on APS-H. APS-H would be the perfect transition format for pentax. They would have enough lenses right off the get go, and then could release a 24-70 and 70-200 while the APS-H body is in production. Then they would be all set for launching FF with full support. APS-H semi-pro body with excellent noise control would be very desired. Then they could launch a FF full pro spec body 12-16 months afterwards.
08-19-2010, 04:12 PM   #550
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QuoteOriginally posted by FullertonImages Quote
Not really. APS-H is fine with lenses that cover the FF image circle. Nothing new would need to be made. We already have the FA Limiteds and the DFA 100 Macro WR; and we know that all the DA* lenses except the 16-50 and 50-135 cover the FF image circle perfectly. Even those two, I believe, aren't that far off from FF coverage, ad would likely be fine on APS-H. APS-H would be the perfect transition format for pentax. They would have enough lenses right off the get go, and then could release a 24-70 and 70-200 while the APS-H body is in production. Then they would be all set for launching FF with full support. APS-H semi-pro body with excellent noise control would be very desired. Then they could launch a FF full pro spec body 12-16 months afterwards.
By that description, ASP-H would be nothing more than a stop-gap measure.

If the end goal is FF, then why not devote *all* of your time and resources on that format? I don't really see the logic in supporting yet another crop format merely as a stepping stone to the traditional 35mm digital equivalent.
08-19-2010, 04:15 PM   #551
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When will people understand that there is no APS-H sensor available on the market?!? That is not a question of Pentax want it or not, it is just the fact that they can't.
So Pentax has to use other weapons. APS-C sensors (from Samsung or Sony), maybe some day a FF sensor (from Sony or Kodak), and that's it. But for this Photokina, do not expect more than APS-C bodies. And maybe one of them EVIL (K-r). A kind of hybrid model like the Sony a33 and a55, with the sensor of NEX3/5 cameras.
And the K5 will use the sensor of a55/a580 and Nikon "D95".
08-19-2010, 06:35 PM   #552
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QuoteOriginally posted by youky63 Quote
When will people understand that there is no APS-H sensor available on the market?!? That is not a question of Pentax want it or not, it is just the fact that they can't.
So Pentax has to use other weapons. APS-C sensors (from Samsung or Sony), maybe some day a FF sensor (from Sony or Kodak), and that's it. But for this Photokina, do not expect more than APS-C bodies. And maybe one of them EVIL (K-r). A kind of hybrid model like the Sony a33 and a55, with the sensor of NEX3/5 cameras.
And the K5 will use the sensor of a55/a580 and Nikon "D95".
When will people start reading posts and realize NOBODY is claiming that Pentax IS going to release an APS-H. People are just talking about the pros & cons of the different formats.
08-19-2010, 06:42 PM   #553
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
Because nobody is making (designing) sensors for Pentax... selling sensors to Pentax, yes - but designwise Pentax is not worth the effort... not even Kodak w/ KAF40000, albeit if Pentax will sell the claimed amount of 645D then Kodak might start actually modify the designs (done for gov't) for Pentax needs and not for PhaseOne/Hasselblad types... So Samsung was making the sensor for itself in the first place and naturally they wanted to be able to sell more APS-C sensors and stop using Sony sensors than sell less of APS-H sensors and still rely on Sony for APS-C cameras... and if Samsung was/is capable to design 2 lines - they'd probably spent the dime on APS-C and FF and not on APS-C and APS-H... ask yourself why Sony does not make ASP-H sensors and Sony can do that much easily than Samsung.
deejjaaaa Sony isn't making APS-H sensors because nobody is asking them too. Developing an APS-H sensor isn't reinventing the sensor wheel. Samsung certainly designed and manufactured sensors specifically for Pentax. I think the partnership has worked well for Pentax.
08-19-2010, 07:09 PM   #554
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Pentax took a risk with samsung sensors, and I believe that the bad rep that pentax got with the K7 sensor(however unfounded) has hurt the sales quite a bit. Pentax just dosn't sell enough cameras to justify the cost of a made to order sensor. Not yet anyway. I think the Canon 7D was a bit of an eye opener for the other companies. People will pay for the best dslr they can afford. The price of the 7D was very high here in Canada but they are still selling in good numbers. The aps-c market is far from dead and Sony, Nikon and Pentax will probably aim to take on the 7D in terms of performance. I do think that HOYA is very responsive in terms of the market and I expect that over the next couple of years that they will be taking on these other brands with products that are as good maybe better. I think Nikon and Canon will stay on top but not with the margins we see now. I am sure Pentax will release a Full Frame camera when there market share is up and Brand recognition is better as well. These things take time unfortunantely.:ugh:
08-19-2010, 08:31 PM   #555
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
deejjaaaa Sony isn't making APS-H sensors because nobody is asking them too.
Ok, to make it more clear for you - why Sony Imaging is not asking Sony Semiconductor to make it ? or Nikon for that matter... Pentax just have neither money nor potential to sell enough for Sony Semiconductor to bother itself w/ anything but selling what they designed for Sony Imaging already... Pentax is free to take it and tune it further on its own, which they certainly can, but that's it.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
Developing an APS-H sensor isn't reinventing the sensor wheel.
sure, it just cost something otherwise we will have APS-H sensors hanging on every tree in da hood.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
Samsung certainly designed and manufactured sensors specifically for Pentax. I think the partnership has worked well for Pentax.
Samsumg certainly designed and manufactured sensor for Samsung in the first place, Pentax was welcome to share the cost (or provide a guaranteed market). What worked well for Pentax was Sony sensor in Kx, not Samsung sensor in K7.
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