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08-19-2010, 08:43 PM   #556
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QuoteOriginally posted by youky63 Quote
When will people understand that there is no APS-H sensor available on the market?!?
rather Canon is not going to sell it for the right price to make sense for Pentax and Pentax might not want to have a more heavy/bigger sensor for its particular sensor stabilization system

08-19-2010, 11:53 PM   #557
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
So, today Nikon released 4 new lenses: 1 APS-C (DX), and 3 FF (FX).

Most interesting, 2 FF models are VR stabilized, 28-300 and 24-120. The # of overlapping FL's in their FX array is a statement about growing market size capable of supporting this diversity without incurring redundancy.

Nikon's pouring bucketloads of $$$ into their FF sensor system, their FF lenses, and bodies. That's a strong market signal.
Yes, the investments in FF by Nikon are, at least, remarkable. But, on the other hand, an investment in a new lens for APS-C is rather remarkable too. If APS-C DSLR's are about to be 'out', according to the current movements, then what's the purpose of a new APS-C lens, knowing that Nikon already has a very extended 'collection' to offer?
Also, seeing how brands like Nikon are extending their prime lens line, I think it's a sign, and Pentax used to be a leader in this particular 'line'.
I hope that Pentax will continue to be so.

Last edited by philippe; 08-20-2010 at 12:11 AM.
08-20-2010, 12:28 AM   #558
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When I go to Pentax's website and look at the pictures in their gallery, I am struck by the number of absolutely creative and beautiful photos there that were taken with the istD and "consumer lenses" that many here would turn their noses up at in the Market Place. What is the ratio of "pro" photographers to serious amature photographers? How much of the longing for FF is the result of successful marketing by the bigger companies who would have us all believe that to be a "pro" (even in one's fantasy life) photographer one "must" have FF? I have the uptmost respect for K20D owners who did not feel compelled to buy the K7, even though I have one myself. The reason for changing from a K10D was honestly due to having small hands and finding the K7 a much easier to handle body. I've been at Best Buy and have looked at the FF Canon and Nikon offerings. They are the McMansions of the camera world. How many serious amatures would aspire to such monster bodies with their built-in grips? How does it fit with all the posts I read about the exquisite IQ and build of the primes and how light weight many of them are, thus winding up in the camera bag more often than the larger Pentax lenses? "Marketing" is about keeping the hysteria level high so that LBA and CBA can flourish. Frankly, I think we could perhaps spend less time on the tools and more time behind the lens. FF does not a talented photographer make.
08-20-2010, 01:04 AM   #559
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QuoteOriginally posted by loveisageless Quote
When I go to Pentax's website and look at the pictures in their gallery, I am struck by the number of absolutely creative and beautiful photos there that were taken with the istD and "consumer lenses" that many here would turn their noses up at in the Market Place. What is the ratio of "pro" photographers to serious amature photographers? How much of the longing for FF is the result of successful marketing by the bigger companies who would have us all believe that to be a "pro" (even in one's fantasy life) photographer one "must" have FF? I have the uptmost respect for K20D owners who did not feel compelled to buy the K7, even though I have one myself. The reason for changing from a K10D was honestly due to having small hands and finding the K7 a much easier to handle body. I've been at Best Buy and have looked at the FF Canon and Nikon offerings. They are the McMansions of the camera world. How many serious amatures would aspire to such monster bodies with their built-in grips? How does it fit with all the posts I read about the exquisite IQ and build of the primes and how light weight many of them are, thus winding up in the camera bag more often than the larger Pentax lenses? "Marketing" is about keeping the hysteria level high so that LBA and CBA can flourish. Frankly, I think we could perhaps spend less time on the tools and more time behind the lens. FF does not a talented photographer make.
Amen!


08-20-2010, 01:30 AM   #560
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I think Pentax have no interest on full-frame.
On their head is present only the medium format and nothing other things.

About the article, official canon source said that a full-frame sensor cost 500 dollars while an aps-c sensor cost only 50 dollars so, unfortunatelly, the difference isn't limited at only 100 dollars between the two solutions.

However i don't think this is a real problem as soon are developed good aps-c solutions.
For example with the pentax k-x you could obtain nice shoot even at 6400 iso, if you improve it using better electronics and algoritms isn't distant the day when an aps-c camera could obtain the same quality possible now using a full-frame.
And even now, despite remain some difference, the result aren't bad at all.
08-20-2010, 02:08 AM   #561
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I am totally against the introduction of APS-H sensors from Pentax. That would create a complete mess and probably kill Pentax. You can build an APS-H camera if you already sell FF cameras. If and only if. IMHO.
As far as DSLR's, I think you're right; it amounts to a gigantic diversion of resources.

But (and I'm just dreaming aloud, I'm neither a physicist nor a marketeer) wouldn't the "dreaded 5x4 APS-H sensor" be an interesting foundation for a fixed-lens/prime p&s or perhaps an MILC. I expect that an APS-H sensor would be easier to shoe-horn into a smallish body than would a FF sensor. And given that it would be the largest sensor in that class of camera (AFAIK?) I expect that would make for good marketing.

My beloved Olympus 35DC is now developing shutter speed issues, the third time something's gone wrong with it in the past four years. I'm going to start shopping for a digital replacement and hope it'll come from Pentax.

QuoteOriginally posted by bodhi Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B11r9v6EeYY
Thanks for posting that. That book, along with "Understanding Exposure" are the two on photography that I've found most useful.
08-20-2010, 02:43 AM   #562
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QuoteOriginally posted by alexfoto Quote
For example with the pentax k-x you could obtain nice shoot even at 6400 iso, if you improve it using better electronics and algoritms isn't distant the day when an aps-c camera could obtain the same quality possible now using a full-frame.
That will be in five years, with current rates.
08-20-2010, 05:07 AM   #563
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QuoteOriginally posted by philippe Quote
Yes, the investments in FF by Nikon are, at least, remarkable. But, on the other hand, an investment in a new lens for APS-C is rather remarkable too. If APS-C DSLR's are about to be 'out', according to the current movements, then what's the purpose of a new APS-C lens, knowing that Nikon already has a very extended 'collection' to offer?
Also, seeing how brands like Nikon are extending their prime lens line, I think it's a sign, and Pentax used to be a leader in this particular 'line'.
I hope that Pentax will continue to be so.
APS-C will no suddenly disappear, but will be priced out of flagship models and then down the price point ladder.

Nikon has sold tens of millions of APS-C DSLR's. That's a long-term market for a relatively easy to manufacture 55-300mm DX lens.

There's no way Nikon would be developing so many overlapping FX zooms without anticipating increases in the installed user base capable of purchasing those lenses. That's a lot of capital going into FF.

Also, if not well-executed. FX Nikon's can use DX lenses. Nikon only has 3 DX primes (10.5, 35, 85). Pentax has thrown a huge amount of effort into its APS-C prime glass (14, 15, 21, 35, 40, 70). Pentax's challenge is to preserve those investments in its best product line by its most loyal customers if the market shifts to FF and/or mirrorless. That's a very challenging task.

08-20-2010, 06:01 AM   #564
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QuoteOriginally posted by philippe Quote
Yes, the investments in FF by Nikon are, at least, remarkable. But, on the other hand, an investment in a new lens for APS-C is rather remarkable too. If APS-C DSLR's are about to be 'out', according to the current movements, then what's the purpose of a new APS-C lens, knowing that Nikon already has a very extended 'collection' to offer?
Also, seeing how brands like Nikon are extending their prime lens line, I think it's a sign, and Pentax used to be a leader in this particular 'line'.
I hope that Pentax will continue to be so.
QuoteOriginally posted by bodhi Quote
This video and his demeanor compelled me to purchase 2 of his titles. Money well spent. He is an exceptional and thorough author and photographer. His style of photography by example is very thought-provoking, bordering on sentimental, but always making you think. He is peerless at the subject and at explaining it.
08-20-2010, 06:25 AM   #565
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
APS-C will no suddenly disappear, but will be priced out of flagship models and then down the price point ladder.
Maybe...but maybe not. One thing that I think you guys are overlooking is that the market for FF pics among the pro crowd is diminishing, not growing. Still photography is primarily a print-driven media. It's no secret that the market for newpapers and magazines is shrinking at an incredible rate. Even commercial advertising photography is largely dependent upon print media. So, once our print media is gone, who will want high-quality stills? That just leaves the enthusiast market...and that's a pretty divided area.
08-20-2010, 06:45 AM   #566
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
Maybe...but maybe not. One thing that I think you guys are overlooking is that the market for FF pics among the pro crowd is diminishing, not growing. Still photography is primarily a print-driven media. It's no secret that the market for newpapers and magazines is shrinking at an incredible rate. Even commercial advertising photography is largely dependent upon print media. So, once our print media is gone, who will want high-quality stills? That just leaves the enthusiast market...and that's a pretty divided area.
Disagree. Print is no longer the driving medium. It's the established medium, but stagnant. Digital display is the driving medium. The big concern for pros is "pixel peeping" of their work and maintaining fidelity at very high resolution on very large screens in the future. The pros I know are worried more about future-proofing their shots for adequate display. Print was premised on the 4x6 and the proof sheet with a loupe. No pros have to guard against digital manipulation and cropping of their images, so they absolutely MUST start with the entirety of the capture as much PP consists of taking away data, not adding to it.
08-20-2010, 06:58 AM   #567
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QuoteOriginally posted by bodhi Quote
Good book, I bought it but I don't find it fantastic, it's a bit dry compared to Peterson's books. Although Peterson is maybe too commercial...

QuoteOriginally posted by alexfoto Quote
About the article, official canon source said that a full-frame sensor cost 500 dollars while an aps-c sensor cost only 50 dollars so, unfortunatelly, the difference isn't limited at only 100 dollars between the two solutions.
Nobody really knows except those buying or building them. If the figure is true, FF will always be a high-end solution and APS-C will continue to exist for a long time. But even if Moore's law doesn't apply to sensors due to their fixed size, it doesn't mean that new processes to build big sensors easily cannot appear or have already appeared.
08-20-2010, 08:03 AM   #568
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QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
As far as DSLR's, I think you're right; it amounts to a gigantic diversion of resources.
nothing gigantic... just Pentax has nowhere to buy it (Canon is the only company that makes it and unlike Sony Semiconductor, which is a separate company from Sony Imaging, it will not be in trouble if it refuse to sell or ask a prohibiting price) to sell then enough cameras w/ enough profit...
08-20-2010, 08:05 AM   #569
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote

Nobody really knows except those buying or building them. If the figure is true, FF will always be a high-end solution and APS-C will continue to exist for a long time. But even if Moore's law doesn't apply to sensors due to their fixed size, it doesn't mean that new processes to build big sensors easily cannot appear or have already appeared.
so far all sensors (FF/MF) bigger that Canon APS-H size are stitched from > 2 pieces... that is one of the problems
08-20-2010, 08:09 AM   #570
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
nothing gigantic... just Pentax has nowhere to buy it (Canon is the only company that makes it and unlike Sony Semiconductor, which is a separate company from Sony Imaging, it will not be in trouble if it refuse to sell or ask a prohibiting price) to sell then enough cameras w/ enough profit...
They outsourced their MF sensor from Kodak, and Kodak has 35mm sized sensors on sale too.

Where is will there is way, but is there any will from Pentax to go into that market? I`m not sure.

Last edited by ilya80; 08-20-2010 at 08:20 AM.
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