[youky63]

In your opinion, how many FF camera are expected for next year?

[stanleyk]

I can count only 1, but it also has big big ?

That's what I thought too. Thanks!

[stanleyk]

In your opinion, how many FF camera are expected for next year?

One wonders how many cameras these companies can keep selling given the current economy. I kind of decided I'm going to sit this one out for a few years. I have a K7, KX, and E-P2 for digital and Leica M3 and Rollei for film. I don't see myself needing any new cameras for awhile. I'm not sure you really are getting much more every time you upgrade. That said, I shoot with the camera on M and always manual focus so the I'm probably an aberration.

I went from the K10 to the K20 to the K7, and I have to admit I could have skipped the K20. The K7 is nice because of it's size.

The camera I've really fallen in love with is the E-P2.

I

[24X36NOW]

Ok.

I know this won't change anyones speculations but the fact is, no FF till 2012 at least, don't expect an announcement till next year.

End of story.

If that's accurate, there will be little left of the enthusiast customer base left to sell it to.

[Aristophanes]

If that's accurate, there will be little left of the enthusiast customer base left to sell it to.

That said, the current flip to FF without price drops from Canikon will force expenditures of at least $6,000 to maximize the offerings, bodies and lens.

That's a pretty hefty sum.

[falconeye]

I'd like to add an argument to the chicken and egg situation we're still facing here.

1. Old facts, summarized:

FF cameras are (still) significantly more expensive and therefore, their production volume is lower. I already said that a volume-produced FF sensor wouldn't justify the steep increase in price we're still seeing. But with the steep increase in price, FF sensors aren't volume-produced (yet).

This circle installs a protection barrier for APS-C enthusiast cameras which will break away at some impredictable moment of time.


2. A new element adding to the discussion:

One reason why FF sensors are more expensive when not volume-produced is that the photoreticle (and stepper widths) weren't made large enough in the first place. Typical values go to up to 22x30mm. But larger reticles can be manufactured if justified by volume. By consequence, FF sensors are stitched which adds to the cost. A photoreticle is a phase shift glass plate with a complex pattern.

It turns out that Hoya is a leading manufacturer of reticles (together with Dai Nippon Printing Company, Toppan Photomasks, Photronics, Taiwan Mask Corporation, Compugraphics Photomask Solutions, Intel Mask Operations, AMD, IBM, NEC, TSMC, Samsung, Micron Technology). That's one asset of Hoya which Canikon may be lacking.

It may even be a good idea for Hoya to specialize on FF reticles and help Sony to manufacture (and share with Hoya) affordable wafers for FF sensors. Therefore, they could lead rather than follow.

[reflexio]

I'd just like to be able to use my old (excellent) M lenses on a digital camera without sensor crop factor.

Pentax could offer the same camera with an option of FF or APS-C. Let the market decide. Surely it is not a big engineering issue.

[TaoMaas]

I'd just like to be able to use my old (excellent) M lenses on a digital camera without sensor crop factor.

I almost feel the same way except I'm not that concerned with the crop factor. I just wish they'd work with open-aperture metering.

[youky63]

I'd like to add an argument to the chicken and egg situation we're still facing here.

1. Old facts, summarized:

FF cameras are (still) significantly more expensive and therefore, their production volume is lower. I already said that a volume-produced FF sensor wouldn't justify the steep increase in price we're still seeing. But with the steep increase in price, FF sensors aren't volume-produced (yet).

This circle installs a protection barrier for APS-C enthusiast cameras which will break away at some impredictable moment of time.


2. A new element adding to the discussion:

One reason why FF sensors are more expensive when not volume-produced is that the photoreticle (and stepper widths) weren't made large enough in the first place. Typical values go to up to 22x30mm. But larger reticles can be manufactured if justified by volume. By consequence, FF sensors are stitched which adds to the cost. A photoreticle is a phase shift glass plate with a complex pattern.

It turns out that Hoya is a leading manufacturer of reticles (together with Dai Nippon Printing Company, Toppan Photomasks, Photronics, Taiwan Mask Corporation, Compugraphics Photomask Solutions, Intel Mask Operations, AMD, IBM, NEC, TSMC, Samsung, Micron Technology). That's one asset of Hoya which Canikon may be lacking.

It may even be a good idea for Hoya to specialize on FF reticles and help Sony to manufacture (and share with Hoya) affordable wafers for FF sensors. Therefore, they could lead rather than follow.

And by your statement 2, you just give an answer to your question in 1:
who is going to break the barrier between high end APS-C and affordable FF: in my opinion, not one of the companies offering such high price APS-C bodies (and at the same time "not cheap" FF), but rather a company not offering them, namely Sony and Pentax. At least, very possible (probable?) for Sony. Then for Pentax, one more time, everything is depending on FF sensors access (as you mentioned).

Good job Falconeye!

[deejjjaaaa]

It turns out that Hoya is a leading manufacturer of reticles (together with Dai Nippon Printing Company, Toppan Photomasks, Photronics, Taiwan Mask Corporation, Compugraphics Photomask Solutions, Intel Mask Operations, AMD, IBM, NEC, TSMC, Samsung, Micron Technology). That's one asset of Hoya which Canikon may be lacking.

It may even be a good idea for Hoya to specialize on FF reticles and help Sony to manufacture (and share with Hoya) affordable wafers for FF sensors. Therefore, they could lead rather than follow.

Sony Semiconductor has many other outlets (even if Hoya is the #1, where is the source of the statistics ?) to source that w/o need to share anything with competition (Hoya)...

[deejjjaaaa]

Just out of curiosity, how many new full frame cameras are being introduced this year?

read bythom.com - there is some info about how many Nikon will introduce.

[Aristophanes]

Where do you see these very large, high resolution screens being used? I'm having trouble coming up with a viable scenario for this.

read bythom.com - there is some info about how many Nikon will introduce.

The far more interesting news on Thom's site is the very quiet assertion that Nikon has brought all sensor design and manufacture in-house. No more buying from Sony. That likely spurred the Sony dropping FF rumours. Nikon was likely Sony's largest customer.

[ghelary]

The far more interesting news on Thom's site is the very quiet assertion that Nikon has brought all sensor design and manufacture in-house. No more buying from Sony. That likely spurred the Sony dropping FF rumours. Nikon was likely Sony's largest customer.

This would be very important news indeed as Sony would have much more interest in sharing the latest sensor production with Hoya / Pentax to leverage costs.

Maybe that's the reason why we'll see the latest 16Mpx sensor in the K-5 (well according to rumors)

[deejjjaaaa]

The far more interesting news on Thom's site is the very quiet assertion that Nikon has brought all sensor design and manufacture in-house. No more buying from Sony. That likely spurred the Sony dropping FF rumours. Nikon was likely Sony's largest customer.

that is old (several days already) news...

[glanglois]

I'd like to add an argument to the chicken and egg situation we're still facing here.

1. Old facts, summarized:

FF cameras are (still) significantly more expensive and therefore, their production volume is lower. I already said that a volume-produced FF sensor wouldn't justify the steep increase in price we're still seeing. But with the steep increase in price, FF sensors aren't volume-produced (yet).

This circle installs a protection barrier for APS-C enthusiast cameras which will break away at some impredictable moment of time.


2. A new element adding to the discussion:

One reason why FF sensors are more expensive when not volume-produced is that the photoreticle (and stepper widths) weren't made large enough in the first place. Typical values go to up to 22x30mm. But larger reticles can be manufactured if justified by volume. By consequence, FF sensors are stitched which adds to the cost. A photoreticle is a phase shift glass plate with a complex pattern.

It turns out that Hoya is a leading manufacturer of reticles (together with Dai Nippon Printing Company, Toppan Photomasks, Photronics, Taiwan Mask Corporation, Compugraphics Photomask Solutions, Intel Mask Operations, AMD, IBM, NEC, TSMC, Samsung, Micron Technology). That's one asset of Hoya which Canikon may be lacking.

It may even be a good idea for Hoya to specialize on FF reticles and help Sony to manufacture (and share with Hoya) affordable wafers for FF sensors. Therefore, they could lead rather than follow.

If FF sensor prices are no longer a major issue in the move to FF cameras, the winners will be those makers who have the systems (bodies, mounts, lenses, etc.) in place to take quick advantage of the change. Those who are not ready fall another step behind and/or retreat further into their niche.

And why would we assume that Hoya's Electro-Optics division would not sell reticles to Nikon? It may be too soon to see where Hoya's interests lie in the consumer photo industry.

Yet another two-edged sword.