Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
08-25-2010, 09:36 AM   #646
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Oregon
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,418
QuoteOriginally posted by Mohawk Quote
Are we still waxing lyrical about the 135 format? FFfanboys, do you really think FF is the be-all and end-all?

Good point. I'd like to see a new digital format that uses the image circle of full-frame 35mm lenses, but with 4x5 proportions. That would give images with more pixels from the same lens.

The 24x36mm format has a diagonal of 43.27mm. That would allow ~27x34 format and an area of 918mm sq, compared to 862mm sq for 35mm film format. The new format would have 6% more area from the same lenses.

A square format would maximize area, but most images would end up cropped, I imagine.

35mm format is derived from film that is 35mm wide, but has sprocket holes on each side, leaving room for 24mm across the film. There is no reason to be constrained by that with digital sensors. Existing lenses [for Pentaxians] are the constraint. 27x34 would make our images bigger than Canikon's.

08-25-2010, 09:43 AM   #647
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,863
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I just think that it is beyond imagination that every time Sony comes with a new sensor (for example a 16 megapixel sensor) then Nikon starts producing a similar sensor with almost exactly the same specs. I understand that Nikon is spinning it as though they are producing these, but I think they are buying sensors from Sony, same as always, and then doing their own processing on top, whether it is hardware or software tweaks.
Not for the D700 and D3s. I think it was Nikon's design team with Renesas for the production, but it might have been Toshiba. It's definitely not a Sony, and it appears there has been a break with Sony with Nikon investing in fabs, either jointly or singly. To track it down one can either follow the chip fabs chatter, or one can follow the money. The money says that Nikon has been hoarding cash to invest in capital. Speculation is that this is chip fabs.

The understanding of Thom's article about Sony pulling out of FF production is premised on the fact that the largest purchaser of FF sensors has been Nikon. Without their economy-of-scale, there is a financial hole for Sony to fill.

For the D3x and D200 sensors, rumour has it that Sony jacked the price. Nikon is notorious for not getting along with suppliers AND distributors, much less a competitor, so a fallout here is not unexpected. Nikon's charge up the sales charts has given them cash to invest in their own production. or joint production with other-than-Sony partners.
08-25-2010, 01:31 PM   #648
Pentaxian
falconeye's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Munich, Alps, Germany
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,863
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by civiletti Quote
That would allow ~27x34 format
OT but a nice variation of a repeating theme.

Technically, you're totally right. Well, almost

Because you would have to consider a variation of target aspect ratios (i.e., aspect ratios used for the actual composition). All sort of ratios are in use:

Landscape 2.4:1, 2:1, 16:9, 3:2, 4:3, 5:4
Square: 1:1
Portrait: 4:5, 3:4, 2:3

Without knowing the exact usage distribution it is impossible to compute the "best" sensor aspect ratio for a given image circle. But the fact that turning the sensor 90 into portrait mode can yield extra pixels for some aspect ratios -- and that that advantage disappears for an (amlost) square sensor -- let's me guess that 3:2 is already very close to a scientifically computed optimum.
08-25-2010, 03:21 PM   #649
m8o
Veteran Member
m8o's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: 40-55'-44" N / 73-24'-07" W [on LI]
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,102
QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Tell me what you think. Shall we make it an Open Letter to Pentax?
Me thinks Pentax thinks their releasing the 645D was their answer to your concerns & desires (never mind its availability and cost).

08-26-2010, 11:51 AM   #650
Veteran Member




Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Posts: 535
Personally, I would like to see a hint of FF plans in the future, although I'm commited to APS-c for now

If Pentax could make a FF DSLR thats smaller then Canikon/Sony behemonts, coupled with a new set of FF primes, it could be a great hit
08-26-2010, 09:53 PM - 1 Like   #651
Inactive Account




Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Thomaville Georgia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 22
I will begin by stating that i am a newcomer to photography and may therefore make stupid remarks based on false assumptions. But, since becoming interested in photography, I have been an avid reader of all relating to the subject, to include discussions on this forum re the full frame debate. I further state that the reason I went Pentax is their dedication to mainting compatibility with legacy lenses. That said, am I correct in assuming that the older lenses (M42,M, K, A, etc.) were designed to produce images on the 24x36 film of the time? If so, then any FF camera they might come out with should be a better fit for use of the old glass than the APS-C DSLRs so far. changing the format to other than 24x36 would require buying new lenses and would negate the reason I went with Pentax in the first place. I am not interested in paying big bucks for new lenses. The benefit of FF is that you can hang so-so glass on the camera and make images superior to APS-C systems with the best glass. The problems encountered with APS-C (noise, etc) don't seem to be mentioned by user forums of FF cameras (the solution to said APS-C problems usually being get a better lens). I, for one would pay $2000+ for a pentax FF that lets me use my old glass to its optimum. I am not interested in a FF that requires new lenses.

I recently upgraded my istD to a K7 and I do like the camera. The K7 is excellent. But, it is my last APS-C. If Pentax doesnt go to FF before I get the itch to move on, I will go Nikon FF. Their mounts allow use of old glass back to AI.

It may cost a little more to produce FF sensors, but Pentax should seriously listen to loyal pentaxians who want a FF system. FF is truly the quantum leap that all manufacturers must make if they want a long-term customer base other than point and shoot. The other manufacturers have already done so. Serious amateurs who are willing to spend sub-$3000 can already satisfy their need for better IQ using old glass with Nikon and Sony. The debate here has been heated, now I have spent my 2 cents. I too, hope Pentax has been listening.

Last edited by glennm; 08-26-2010 at 09:57 PM. Reason: change M24 to M42
08-26-2010, 10:07 PM   #652
Junior Member




Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 30
How hard can it be to stick a FF sensor in the K7? It's a stupid question, I realise, but really, just how much effort (therefore $$) will it take to achieve that? And I am not talking about replacing the current AF system or adding any super-duper fancy features.
08-26-2010, 11:51 PM   #653
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 9,125
No, the question is: how hard would it be to sell enough cameras in order to make (at least) a small profit?
Some pentaxians are whishing for a FF; few of them would even buy one. Others are complaining that cameras and lenses are too expensive (guess how they'll react to a "FF", and semi-pro "FF" lenses...). Are there enough customers? Is the risk acceptable? Is it the right moment to divert resources from other project?
Most likely, Hoya/Pentax can answer this better than I

glennm, I agree - "FF" is the quantum leap - judging by the market share. Quantum, as in the smallest possible unit.

08-27-2010, 04:31 AM   #654
Senior Member




Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 119
QuoteOriginally posted by civiletti Quote
Good point. I'd like to see a new digital format that uses the image circle of full-frame 35mm lenses, but with 4x5 proportions. That would give images with more pixels from the same lens.

The 24x36mm format has a diagonal of 43.27mm. That would allow ~27x34 format and an area of 918mm sq, compared to 862mm sq for 35mm film format. The new format would have 6% more area from the same lenses.

A square format would maximize area, but most images would end up cropped, I imagine.

35mm format is derived from film that is 35mm wide, but has sprocket holes on each side, leaving room for 24mm across the film. There is no reason to be constrained by that with digital sensors. Existing lenses [for Pentaxians] are the constraint. 27x34 would make our images bigger than Canikon's.
Yes, it's a bit disappointing that people are so hung up about an arbitrary size.

But we can all argue and have hissy fits about formats. But it all goes down to cost vs. profitability (and risk), which most of us don't have a clue about in terms of Hoya-Pentax's position.
08-27-2010, 04:55 AM   #655
Veteran Member
mysterick's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 44266
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 428
OT: There seem to be a lot of "new members" on this thread with contrary opinions. (?)
08-27-2010, 05:39 AM   #656
Pentaxian
TaoMaas's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Oklahoma City
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,195
QuoteOriginally posted by obheng Quote
How hard can it be to stick a FF sensor in the K7? It's a stupid question, I realise, but really, just how much effort (therefore $$) will it take to achieve that? And I am not talking about replacing the current AF system or adding any super-duper fancy features.
I think it would require a larger prism and mirror box, for starters. That would mean an all new re-design of the camera.
08-27-2010, 07:36 AM   #657
m8o
Veteran Member
m8o's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: 40-55'-44" N / 73-24'-07" W [on LI]
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,102
RE:
QuoteOriginally posted by glennm Quote
The benefit of FF is that you can hang so-so glass on the camera and make images superior to APS-C systems with the best glass.
To anyone in the know in the peanut gallery... is this true?
08-27-2010, 07:42 AM   #658
m8o
Veteran Member
m8o's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: 40-55'-44" N / 73-24'-07" W [on LI]
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,102
QuoteOriginally posted by glennm Quote
I recently upgraded my istD to a K7 and I do like the camera. The K7 is excellent. But, it is my last APS-C.
Why? Low-light + HIGH-ISO performance? or something else in combination with that? (the former is the sole reason I did not upgrade to the K-7 btw)

And then what if the K-5 can match (exceed?) the Low-light + High-ISO performance of the K-x + give you everything else of the K-7 + advancements?
08-27-2010, 08:09 AM   #659
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 9,125
QuoteOriginally posted by glennm Quote
The benefit of FF is that you can hang so-so glass on the camera and make images superior to APS-C systems with the best glass.
Somehow, I doubt that. Either the "so-so glass" is not really "so-so", or the "best glass" is far from being the "best" - or we're not comparing lens-related image quality (e.g. by talking about noise).
08-27-2010, 08:17 AM   #660
Pentaxian
TaoMaas's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Oklahoma City
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,195
QuoteOriginally posted by m8o Quote
RE: To anyone in the know in the peanut gallery... is this true?

I guess it depends upon your definition of "so-so". What good is it to shoot a FF camera with a lens which is soft around the edges? Or one in which you have to stop down to f8 to start getting good sharpeness?
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
frame, k-5, lenses, mystery, pentax, pentax news, pentax rumors, photokina, release
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Full frame pentax cem.kumuk Pentax DSLR Discussion 11 11-12-2010 03:13 PM
I think the Pentax FF will be announced at Photokina 2010 whatever7 Pentax News and Rumors 106 02-04-2010 12:45 AM
Expired Theme Theme: Contest #41, January, 2010 (Frame within a Frame) Adam Monthly Photo Contests 11 01-21-2010 12:33 AM
The almost full frame Pentax? denisv Photographic Technique 44 01-19-2009 04:01 AM
New Pentax k18D - Full Frame ebooks4pentax Pentax DSLR Discussion 17 10-31-2007 05:46 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:35 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top