Photokina 2010, Pentax and the full frame mystery

ewalk · 08-28-2010, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by ManuH

The problem with that is that in the past they already did that with the MZ-D, DA* 60-250mm and 645D. And for many years they were just vapourware or even canceled in the MZ-D case. And they lost some credibility in the process. I personally wouldn't take seriously any mock-up presented at Photokina.

Good point - although that was under the "old" Pentax - before Hoya took over.

With Hoya stopping the publication of the lens roadmap and locking down on leaks, combined with the push to produce the on-again, off-again 645D and the relative success of the K-x and K-7, I'd actually put stock in a mock-up presented at Photokina. Hoya seems to be doing a fairly good job at not waffling on business decisions. That being said, I don't think we'll see one - not yet anyways.

It might come down to whether or not Hoya thinks FF is worth the time and money - or if the resources are better spent pursuing the "EVIL" market. It's interesting to see that all of the mirrorless compacts are made by companies with a high level of electronics expertise - Sony, Panasonic and Samsung - to name a few. Manufacturers of traditional cameras - Pentax, Canon and Nikon - might not be as well versed in the miniaturization of electronics.

Kenn100D · 08-28-2010, 01:42 PM

If there is anything to be released it is kept under tight secret. Thsi time no fancy release like 645D. Everybody will be guessing. Those who are on the know will be keep quiet unless they are ordered to release bits of information. I believe they will release something BIG and Photokina is the event that will have others dream come true and some aren't.

We'll see some in the start of September.

TomE · 08-28-2010, 10:33 PM

If Pentax waits until 2012 for FF I for one will be long gone to either Nikon or Canon.

Tom

brecklundin · 08-29-2010, 07:19 AM

Here is a thought. Should HoyaTax indeed come out with a FF camera, and hey why not as prices for sensors drop every year unless ya want the newest sensors. Anyway, something Pentax will have problems providing is long glass as well as solid pro-caliber zooms. A refresher on the FF ability might start here:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/31629-da-lens-...ts-thread.html

Pentax needs lenses to adapt for the FF 1.0x factor in order to provide a full pro line solution. I would think the would want to release a few lenses first, maybe just enough that are FF friendly to imply something is on the pipeline. And FF shooters are going to want SDM and read SDM with quiet ring motors. It's just sort of the finishing touches sort of things.

But if they don't have enough lenses and release a FF body first, then lemme tell ya, the current userbase will be the beta testers for HoyaTax as they shake out the bugs on within the Black Amex crowd. But for real then the longest glass will be 300mm, the only the DA*300 & the 60-250 plus the FA's are FF friendly right? Or am I mis-remembering that part? Of it's not the case then there is a ton of work and resources needing to be devoted to develop the lenses and the bodies. Unless they have been working on this for a few years already and can hit the ground running and release bits in stages across a year's time...I don't see the point.

Yeah, a HoyaTax FF option would be interesting for sure...not sure it's for me though. But it would make a lot of folks happy. I hope there are 2-3 more DFA WR lenses this next week, that could bode well for a FF??? But will these new DFA lenses have trustworthy SDM with ring motors? The screw dirve if fine but for modern day use, it is just too noisy. I mean what good is the super quiet shutter of the K7 when paired with a screw drive FA Limited? I guess about as good as weather sealing in the K7 combined with the same FA Limiteds....

TaoMaas · 08-29-2010, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by brecklundin

Here is a thought. Should HoyaTax indeed come out with a FF camera, and hey why not as prices for sensors drop every year unless ya want the newest sensors. Anyway, something Pentax will have problems providing is long glass as well as solid pro-caliber zooms.

You're right. A FF Pentax camera is not an automatic gateway to the pro crowd. Those pros are going to want FF glass to hang on that body and right now Pentax doesn't offer that. They MIGHT eventually...but at this point, they don't.

Nubi · 08-29-2010, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by glanglois

I think that many would accept a simple directional announcement, even if it's only that FF is due in 2012 and a stepping stone or two (lens direction) in the meantime. No one is expecting a product announcement.

That's the whole point of this thread: asking Hoya/Pentax for that directional statement.

But, at the same time, it seems a bit silly for them to announce a plan for FF when they are about to release 2 APS-C cameras. It would probably interfere with the sales of K-5. I see K-5 as a camera that people who passed on K-7 will buy. I am sure that a certain percentage of that group of people would rather that they wait even a bit more to get FF if it is indeed coming in say less than 12 months.

Maybe Pentax will never make FF. Maybe they will stick a MF sensor in a body a tad smaller than Leica S2 with 645 mount and sell it for $3,500, or something like that. Like emr says, by the time they line up not only the body but a set of lenses for FF, that particular segment of technology may well be obsolete. Personally, I am glad they have not done it. That might have really put him out of business entirely.

24X36NOW · 08-29-2010, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by ennacac

If Pentax waits until 2012 for FF I for one will be long gone to either Nikon or Canon.

Tom

Unfortunately, that's what Pentax doesn't seem to understand - the foot dragging is resulting in lost "enthusiast" customers, and the losses are more than likely permanent in most cases.

Blue · 08-29-2010, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by ennacac

If Pentax waits until 2012 for FF I for one will be long gone to either Nikon or Canon.

Tom

Which one, Can-non or Nikon? Those are 2 different philosophies.

sarcasm

falconeye · 08-31-2010, 09:14 AM

I received a new comment on my blog article this thread is about.

Please, read the last two comments.

Did we just see a leak of a new AF module deployed in the K-5?

ogl · 08-31-2010, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

I received a new comment on my blog article this thread is about.

Please, read the last two comments.

Did we just see a leak of a new AF module deployed in the K-5?

where SR system helps AF?

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20100215352.pdf

ewalk · 08-31-2010, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by ogl

where SR system helps AF?

I saw a recent patent by Hoya that described exactly that.

falconeye · 08-31-2010, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by ewalk

I saw a recent patent by Hoya that described exactly that.

I googled it. Kolding's comment at my blog and photorumors.com are the only references to this patent so far. Yes, it is the patent ogl copied the link here making it the 3rd reference

Maybe, you saw it earlier and told nobody but the patent is fairly recent, isn't it? From August 26, to be precise! It's Japan Feb 20, 2009 filing date would fit with a presumed K-5 development cycle. Interesting to check that out at Photokina

ewalk · 08-31-2010, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

I googled it. Kolding's comment at my blog and photorumors.com are the only references to this patent so far. Yes, it is the patent ogl copied the link here making it the 3rd reference

I spent my morning drinking coffee and searching for "Hoya Corporation" patents.

Quote:

Maybe, you saw it earlier and told nobody but the patent is fairly recent, isn't it? From August 26, to be precise! It's Japan Feb 20, 2009 filing date would fit with a presumed K-5 development cycle. Interesting to check that out at Photokina

Should be interesting! Can't wait - just a few more days!

Gimbal · 08-31-2010, 09:50 AM

I don't know, but is the benefit worth the effort in this case? If it really is such a huge benefit then maybe the canikon bunch is right and in-lens stabilization is the way to go for Pentax as well. Or maybe we should smack on some motors to the viewfinder while we are at it?

Asahiflex · 08-31-2010, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by Gimbal

I don't know, but is the benefit worth the effort in this case? If it really is such a huge benefit then maybe the canikon bunch is right and in-lens stabilization is the way to go for Pentax as well. Or maybe we should smack on some motors to the viewfinder while we are at it?

In some cases I didn't get an AF lock because I shaked the camera too much. If this device makes for a much faster AF lock (eliminating the double check AF lock) I'm all for it

And remember... Having SR with ALL of your lenses is still priceless.

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08-28-2010, 11:03 AM	#706
ewalk Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 316	Originally posted by ManuH The problem with that is that in the past they already did that with the MZ-D, DA* 60-250mm and 645D. And for many years they were just vapourware or even canceled in the MZ-D case. And they lost some credibility in the process. I personally wouldn't take seriously any mock-up presented at Photokina. Good point - although that was under the "old" Pentax - before Hoya took over. With Hoya stopping the publication of the lens roadmap and locking down on leaks, combined with the push to produce the on-again, off-again 645D and the relative success of the K-x and K-7, I'd actually put stock in a mock-up presented at Photokina. Hoya seems to be doing a fairly good job at not waffling on business decisions. That being said, I don't think we'll see one - not yet anyways. It might come down to whether or not Hoya thinks FF is worth the time and money - or if the resources are better spent pursuing the "EVIL" market. It's interesting to see that all of the mirrorless compacts are made by companies with a high level of electronics expertise - Sony, Panasonic and Samsung - to name a few. Manufacturers of traditional cameras - Pentax, Canon and Nikon - might not be as well versed in the miniaturization of electronics.

08-28-2010, 01:42 PM	#707
Kenn100D Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Paranaque City, Philippines Photos: Gallery Posts: 697	If there is anything to be released it is kept under tight secret. Thsi time no fancy release like 645D. Everybody will be guessing. Those who are on the know will be keep quiet unless they are ordered to release bits of information. I believe they will release something BIG and Photokina is the event that will have others dream come true and some aren't. We'll see some in the start of September.

08-28-2010, 10:33 PM	#708
TomE Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 299	If Pentax waits until 2012 for FF I for one will be long gone to either Nikon or Canon. Tom

08-29-2010, 07:19 AM	#709
brecklundin Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Photos: Albums Posts: 1,674	Here is a thought. Should HoyaTax indeed come out with a FF camera, and hey why not as prices for sensors drop every year unless ya want the newest sensors. Anyway, something Pentax will have problems providing is long glass as well as solid pro-caliber zooms. A refresher on the FF ability might start here: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/31629-da-lens-...ts-thread.html Pentax needs lenses to adapt for the FF 1.0x factor in order to provide a full pro line solution. I would think the would want to release a few lenses first, maybe just enough that are FF friendly to imply something is on the pipeline. And FF shooters are going to want SDM and read SDM with quiet ring motors. It's just sort of the finishing touches sort of things. But if they don't have enough lenses and release a FF body first, then lemme tell ya, the current userbase will be the beta testers for HoyaTax as they shake out the bugs on within the Black Amex crowd. But for real then the longest glass will be 300mm, the only the DA*300 & the 60-250 plus the FA's are FF friendly right? Or am I mis-remembering that part? Of it's not the case then there is a ton of work and resources needing to be devoted to develop the lenses and the bodies. Unless they have been working on this for a few years already and can hit the ground running and release bits in stages across a year's time...I don't see the point. Yeah, a HoyaTax FF option would be interesting for sure...not sure it's for me though. But it would make a lot of folks happy. I hope there are 2-3 more DFA WR lenses this next week, that could bode well for a FF??? But will these new DFA lenses have trustworthy SDM with ring motors? The screw dirve if fine but for modern day use, it is just too noisy. I mean what good is the super quiet shutter of the K7 when paired with a screw drive FA Limited? I guess about as good as weather sealing in the K7 combined with the same FA Limiteds....

08-29-2010, 07:48 AM	#710
TaoMaas Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Oklahoma City Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,574	Originally posted by brecklundin Here is a thought. Should HoyaTax indeed come out with a FF camera, and hey why not as prices for sensors drop every year unless ya want the newest sensors. Anyway, something Pentax will have problems providing is long glass as well as solid pro-caliber zooms. You're right. A FF Pentax camera is not an automatic gateway to the pro crowd. Those pros are going to want FF glass to hang on that body and right now Pentax doesn't offer that. They MIGHT eventually...but at this point, they don't.

08-29-2010, 08:24 AM	#711
Nubi Guest	Originally posted by glanglois I think that many would accept a simple directional announcement, even if it's only that FF is due in 2012 and a stepping stone or two (lens direction) in the meantime. No one is expecting a product announcement. That's the whole point of this thread: asking Hoya/Pentax for that directional statement. But, at the same time, it seems a bit silly for them to announce a plan for FF when they are about to release 2 APS-C cameras. It would probably interfere with the sales of K-5. I see K-5 as a camera that people who passed on K-7 will buy. I am sure that a certain percentage of that group of people would rather that they wait even a bit more to get FF if it is indeed coming in say less than 12 months. Maybe Pentax will never make FF. Maybe they will stick a MF sensor in a body a tad smaller than Leica S2 with 645 mount and sell it for $3,500, or something like that. Like emr says, by the time they line up not only the body but a set of lenses for FF, that particular segment of technology may well be obsolete. Personally, I am glad they have not done it. That might have really put him out of business entirely.

08-29-2010, 11:48 AM	#712
24X36NOW Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: CT, USA Posts: 498	Originally posted by ennacac If Pentax waits until 2012 for FF I for one will be long gone to either Nikon or Canon. Tom Unfortunately, that's what Pentax doesn't seem to understand - the foot dragging is resulting in lost "enthusiast" customers, and the losses are more than likely permanent in most cases.

08-29-2010, 12:22 PM	#713
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by ennacac If Pentax waits until 2012 for FF I for one will be long gone to either Nikon or Canon. Tom Which one, Can-non or Nikon? Those are 2 different philosophies.

08-31-2010, 09:14 AM	#714
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871 Original Poster	I received a new comment on my blog article this thread is about. Please, read the last two comments. Did we just see a leak of a new AF module deployed in the K-5?

08-31-2010, 09:15 AM	#715
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by falconeye I received a new comment on my blog article this thread is about. Please, read the last two comments. Did we just see a leak of a new AF module deployed in the K-5? where SR system helps AF? http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20100215352.pdf

08-31-2010, 09:17 AM	#716
ewalk Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 316	Originally posted by ogl where SR system helps AF? I saw a recent patent by Hoya that described exactly that.

08-31-2010, 09:26 AM	#717
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871 Original Poster	Originally posted by ewalk I saw a recent patent by Hoya that described exactly that. I googled it. Kolding's comment at my blog and photorumors.com are the only references to this patent so far. Yes, it is the patent ogl copied the link here making it the 3rd reference Maybe, you saw it earlier and told nobody but the patent is fairly recent, isn't it? From August 26, to be precise! It's Japan Feb 20, 2009 filing date would fit with a presumed K-5 development cycle. Interesting to check that out at Photokina

08-31-2010, 09:32 AM	#718
ewalk Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 316	Originally posted by falconeye I googled it. Kolding's comment at my blog and photorumors.com are the only references to this patent so far. Yes, it is the patent ogl copied the link here making it the 3rd reference I spent my morning drinking coffee and searching for "Hoya Corporation" patents. Quote: Maybe, you saw it earlier and told nobody but the patent is fairly recent, isn't it? From August 26, to be precise! It's Japan Feb 20, 2009 filing date would fit with a presumed K-5 development cycle. Interesting to check that out at Photokina Should be interesting! Can't wait - just a few more days!

08-31-2010, 09:50 AM	#719
Gimbal Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,106	I don't know, but is the benefit worth the effort in this case? If it really is such a huge benefit then maybe the canikon bunch is right and in-lens stabilization is the way to go for Pentax as well. Or maybe we should smack on some motors to the viewfinder while we are at it?

08-31-2010, 09:54 AM	#720
Asahiflex Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Netherlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,795	Originally posted by Gimbal I don't know, but is the benefit worth the effort in this case? If it really is such a huge benefit then maybe the canikon bunch is right and in-lens stabilization is the way to go for Pentax as well. Or maybe we should smack on some motors to the viewfinder while we are at it? In some cases I didn't get an AF lock because I shaked the camera too much. If this device makes for a much faster AF lock (eliminating the double check AF lock) I'm all for it And remember... Having SR with ALL of your lenses is still priceless.