[Parallax]

It was Parallax.

I even got a User Infraction for creating the thread.

No, you didn't. No point infraction was issued. You received a rules reminder. Let's keep the facts straight.

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Last edited by Parallax; 08-07-2010 at 08:13 AM.

[falconeye]

No, you didn't. No point infraction was issued. You received a rules reminder. Let's keep the facts straight.

A "zero point" user infraction is a user infraction. Let's keep the facts straight. Btw, the user infraction page (I quoted in post #86) doesn't mention infraction points anyway.

As a matter of fact, you made me upset. Not by the infraction (that's seems to be a Mods game I don't care about anyway). But about moving my thread to the section where creationists hang out. And I still am. That's all what counts as far as I and my motivation to provide content here, are concerned.

P.S.
Adam expects you to move the thread back ...

[Adam]

It was Parallax.

I even got a User Infraction for creating the thread. Despite the fact that the thread had a good rating (before the move -- now, the rating is gone) and despite the fact that my reputation exceeded that of the Mod. Anyway, I was always suspicious that the reputation system serves no purpose.

And I created the thread in the News section because I wanted to disclose (and discuss) a news item: that Pentax plans to remain silent on the full frame topic during Photokina. It took me some consideration to highlight that particular news bit and share this at all. But now, I feel I won't disclose stuff again.

That's just wrong. Have you told Adam?


Don't let your actions be influenced by an incompetent moderator.

Yes. But he seems to be busy with technical stuff.

Why not? I do this for fun. And if it's no fun, I won't do it.

You guys really need to take it easy and move on instead of beating a dead horse here. I looked into the matter personally, and it seems the moderators moved this thread because it was neither Pentax news nor a Pentax-specific rumor. They also believed that this thread was started to promote your blog link in the first post, and therefore issued a rule reminder (not an infraction!) to make you aware of the forum rule that states that links should generally go in signatures.

It turned out that you posted the link in good faith, and that's fine. People, even the moderators, do make mistakes. If you were given an infraction for this post, it would have been reversed at this point.

Now, as far as moving this thread goes, that's a whole other story unrelated to the rule reminder. If you guys would all like the thread moved back and feel and it's more Pentax-related than anything else (I personally have not reviewed the flow of discussion), please put in a request here and the moderators will take care of it. If not, then continue discussion normally, and please don't be giving our hard-working moderators a bad name for something this trivial.

Thanks!

[Pål Jensen]

Again, let me repeat that this wasn't meant to launch yet another FF vs. APSC discussion.

It was about Pentax communication strategy in a situation where it becomes likely that the entire APSC dSLR market will move full frame some day (partly to counteract the SLDs).

Many expect or expected Pentax to say something about full frame at Photokina 2010. My News is that they don't plan to do so. And my proposed discussion is about the consequences of said silence. Not the benefits of APSC or FF...

Btw, I think that Pentax can wait for launching FF until it hits the $1500 price point. But I think it has to communicate this. Btw, I have reason to believe that Tokyo has ongoing full frame activity which isn't communicated even to other Pentax country organisations.

It is not that simple. Announcing FF may impact sales of current APS DSLR's and lenses more than it may prevent deflectors. Personally, I would not buy the K-5 and the 15mm and 21 Limited + the kit lens (to replace the DA* 16-50/2.8) next year if Pentax said that had an FF camera a year or so away. I already own a complete FF lens line-up, including the Limiteds.

[Class A]

You guys really need to take it easy and move on instead of beating a dead horse here.

Horses die quickly around here.

As I see it a moderator made a mistake:

• Falk is clearly not someone posting to promote his blog
• You said any infraction points would have been taken back by now
• You agree that the thread should be moved back

but the moderator doesn't say "oops, sorry" and moves the thread back (in which case the whole thing would have been a non-issue) but instead continues to lecture Falk that an "infraction" (with an expiration date) is just a "rules reminder". Also, after having his thread moved without a proper reason, Falk now has to explicitly apply to have it moved back, instead of the latter happening automatically.

Let's not get cause and effect mixed up. Moderators deserve our utmost respect for their work but if someone makes a mistake they better fix it rather than giving a forum member that does heaps for the quality of this forum a hard time.

[nosnoop]

It was about Pentax communication strategy in a situation where it becomes likely that the entire APSC dSLR market will move full frame some day (partly to counteract the SLDs).
... And my proposed discussion is about the consequences of said silence. Not the benefits of APSC or FF...
Btw, I think that Pentax can wait for launching FF until it hits the $1500 price point. But I think it has to communicate this.

I think it is a BAD idea to pre-announce something which could be a long way off.
And I don't believe the lack of a FF in the Pentax line-up is such a big deal, let alone not announcing one this year.

Pre-announcing a vaporware without an ETA does more harm than good. Market condition can change. If Canikon are left to themselves, they would be quite comfortable maintaining the current pricing tiers, and keep a generous profit margins for FFs. Who knows.... Sony may exit the FF market, or they may blow everyone away by introducing a super cheap FF. There is a great uncertainty if or when the desired price point is reached. Going to FF is NOT an inevitable path. So making a commitment now for an uncertain future is more of a suicide than not saying anything. It would only generate more whining and anxiety among users who may hold off buying any existing camera and lenses in anticipation for a vaporware at an unknown price point.

[bertbert]

True, it's one of many signs. But then I would have concluded that Pentax makes some kind of positive full frame statement during Photokina 2010. Which isn't their intention AFAIK.

And I created the thread in the News section because I wanted to disclose (and discuss) a news item: that Pentax plans to remain silent on the full frame topic during Photokina.

In my eyes, the above information if correct clearly indicates that Pentax is indeed developing a full frame 135 dSLR.

[Aristophanes]

I think it is a BAD idea to pre-announce something which could be a long way off.
And I don't believe the lack of a FF in the Pentax line-up is such a big deal, let alone not announcing one this year.

Pre-announcing a vaporware without an ETA does more harm than good. Market condition can change. If Canikon are left to themselves, they would be quite comfortable maintaining the current pricing tiers, and keep a generous profit margins for FFs. Who knows.... Sony may exit the FF market, or they may blow everyone away by introducing a super cheap FF. There is a great uncertainty if or when the desired price point is reached. Going to FF is NOT an inevitable path. So making a commitment now for an uncertain future is more of a suicide than not saying anything. It would only generate more whining and anxiety among users who may hold off buying any existing camera and lenses in anticipation for a vaporware at an unknown price point.

The timing is not up to Pentax. If they release another K-7 price point mode,while Canikon announce lower prices for their FF's (or APS-H) that overlaps price points, Pentax has a very serious problem. They can either stay with APS-C, cut prices, and take a loss to keep some revenues coming in, or they can announce and hurry-up FF development, cutting revenues but assuring the loyal.

Either way, it's about reacting to the much larger market players.

[Angevinn]

This thread needs to be moved back to the news section. Moving it to this section is complete bull.



Abuse of Power!

[Urkeldaedalus]

This thread needs to be moved back to the news section. Moving it to this section is complete bull.



Abuse of Power!

I thought it was the appropriate move, given that a Pentax blogger who shall remain nameless got in trouble for doing the very same thing -- posting a link to his blog in the message. The fact that I agree with falconeye about Pentax needing to announce full frame doesn't change that.

I think there needs to be a separate Pentax Speculation forum so these distinctions and snafus can be eliminated. In truth, most of what is on the News and Rumors section contains neither news or rumors.

[aragondina]

But seriously, I think you must have a very fixed idea of what the MF market represents. At the moment it is people who can afford to splash $20,000 to $40,000 on a Mamiya/Phase One or Hasselblad. Pentax comes in offering a much cheaper camera with up to date electronics and, courtesy of the continuing development of their APS-C SLRs, the promise of continual improvement. It opens up MF to a new market rather than trying to grab a slice of the existing market. If you aspire to a 40mp sensor and have $12,000 - $20,000 to spend then Pentax is the only game in town.

Using that logic everyone would have been shooting MF film cameras and 35mm would have died a long time ago. High end pros who use MF don't care about the price as they can write off the cost. They buy what they need to do the job as quickly and efficiently as possible. And when they buy there has to be a service network and an upgrade path, neither of which Pentax offers. The 645d is for the same market it was when it was film, the amateur with extra money who will pay the premium for the IQ.

A removable back is a non-feature, relevant only in the days when you were upgrading your film body. I think you will find that accurate metering and fast AF are much more of a sales pitch than any ability to connect with an obsolete legacy system. The time for switching from film to digital has passed, I don't think there are any more pro photographers grimly waiting for the prices of Hasselblad or Mamiya compatible backs to drop to an affordable level.

Digital backs represent an upgrade path for other manufacturers not just film to digital, but being able to change your MP count depending on the job requirements without having to purchase an entirely new camera. How fast an autofocus do you need in a studio? In the environment these cameras are used in autofocus isn't even really needed (but nice to have). Also a pro in a studio will use a light meter to make sure he gets the correct exposure so metering is again a "feature" that a working pro doesn't need and probably would never use. The "features" on the 645d are to get the amateur with extra money to buy not pros.

I should point out that the entire Phase One range has just four AF primes and one AF zoom. The Hasselbald H system (at double the cost of the Pentax) has nine primes and two zooms. Pentax has nine primes and five zooms with more to come.

I should point out that there are only 2, count them, TWO digital ready 645 lenses from Pentax. The rest are legacy film lenses. As we all know old film lenses, while nice, can have issues when used with a digital sensor. With 40mp to play with I don't want to (or should) have to deal with a lot of CA in post. I also will point out that the 2 new lenses are SDM with all the problems that it brings along with it. I will ask this... How many lenses does a studio photographer really need? It's not like he is going to go shoot birds in flight with a MF camera is he? I would guess that the lens lineups that the others offer reflect what their customers require. If enough customers needed something else they would make it.
It's not like the guy's from Sports Illustrated are going to drop their 1D mkIV's and buy a 645d to shoot NFL games or boxing matches. Nor will photojournalists buy one because they are too big, slow, and heavy. Medium format is for a specific market, studio, some landscape photographers, and maybe the odd wedding photographer might use one for formals, but that's it. It's a very small market and the only pros that Pentax might entice are the new ones. Established ones will stay with the pro systems they have now.

[Aristophanes]

I think there needs to be a separate Pentax Speculation forum so these distinctions and snafus can be eliminated. In truth, most of what is on the News and Rumors section contains neither news or rumors.

I fail to see the distinction between speculation and rumours.

Falk has done market analysis. Nothing more.

[falconeye]

Falk has done market analysis. Nothing more.

Not exactly. Otherwise, I could have done it months ago.

[Urkeldaedalus]

I fail to see the distinction between speculation and rumours.

Falk has done market analysis. Nothing more.

Speculation and rumors are of course different things. Rumors, by definition, almost always claim to have a source for their information, and are based in facts, even though the source is often unnamed or unverifiable. Basically when rumors become verified they then become news. Speculation is done based on known and rumored information to determine something that may happen. It is never news itself, but a reaction and conjecture based on what is and could be news.

A good example of the difference between these two:

News or Rumor: The K-7 replacement will be XXX. XXX will be released at Photokina.

Speculation: What do you guys think the K-7 replacement will be? When will it be out? New lenses?

Or how about this:

People hear there is a shutter reduction blur problem --> Rumor
Falconeye discovers shutter blur problem --> News
Falconeye discusses how Pentax should announce FF --> Speculation

Where I agree with you is that speculation and news/rumors often go hand and hand, so it might be silly to separate them. My point was that as it stands now, it's not really clear where the breakup between these two kinds of threads should go. So moderators should either let them exist side by side, or create another type of subforum that would break them out. Perhaps move General Talk up so it's below News and Rumors, as I think it tends to get ignored.

[falconeye]

Pre-announcing a vaporware without an ETA does more harm than good.

That's the kind of discussion I wanted to stimulate. Thanks.

You may be right. I don't share the opinion but I may be wrong, of course.


Just one short story comes to (my) mind: When all microprocessor vendors went 32 Bit (most notably Motorola with its 68k), Intel almost lost all its contract leads and went into deep trouble. Because they stick to 16 Bit and said so.

Then, they had an idea of genius (at the time): they wrote a 32 Bit roadmap and equipped their sales force with it (so, to be shown under NDA). All of a sudden, they won all the important contracts, including the IBM PC ... Despite the fact that their processors still were 16 Bit. They simply convinced their customers that they work on 32 Bit and they'll be ready as soon as the market needs it (read, gets cheap enough).

I see Pentax in Intel's situation before they made their roadmap available.