Photokina 2010, Pentax and the full frame mystery

Class A · 08-15-2010, 02:47 AM

Originally posted by Winder

People have stated that size is the biggest factor in sensor performance at high-ISO, and I disagree.

This is a misunderstanding. What people have stated is that a) everything else being equal size determines high-ISO performance and b) pixel-pitch (or pixel size if you like) has no bearing on high-ISO performance.

Of course, noisy A/D converters, etc. can have a higher influence on high-ISO performance than sensor size.

Originally posted by Winder

There are real world examples of smaller sensors of the same technology level out performing larger sensors, or performing at comparable levels.

You cannot use real world examples where large technological differences are involved to conclude that pixel-pitch is the determining factor.

By the same token, you could conclude from real world examples that having even-toed hoofs makes you have a multi-chambered stomach. For every animal you can observe that's true but there is no causality. Your case is worse since your hypothesis does not even hold for all observable sensors.

Class A · 08-15-2010, 03:26 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

I invite more contributions about what Pentax should communicate and do in the next 2 years though.

It would be good to know what Pentax think their target audience is. Is it just the outdoors type who will never need tethered shooting? Or do they aim to build cameras useful for studio use as well? Will they keep manufacturing lenses for portrait photographers? Are there any plans to cater for birders?

It will be difficult for Pentax to commit to specific products and features but if they said "XY is our main target market" then people would have a chance to check whether they feel they are in this market or not.

**ManuH** · 08-15-2010, 04:41 AM

Originally posted by Class A

It would be good to know what Pentax think their target audience is. Is it just the outdoors type who will never need tethered shooting?

I would have thought that after the K-7 they at last took a clear direction: build rugged cameras with affordable weathersealing. They re-released the 18-55mm and 55-200mm as WR lenses. All was good but then they released the non-WR K-x and didn't follow up on the mid-range K200D. They should have released the K300D: same electronics as the K-x, same WR body as the K200D, it would have been so easy, almost no R&D and a third model to close the big gap between K-x and K-7. I know, maybe the K-7 sales would have been cannibalized? I don't think so, the K-7 still has many unique features.

Now let's look at the PopPhoto cover, the K-7 is deemed best buy outdoor camera. I think Pentax should really capitalize on that. WR is the only feature the other makers don't have at these price point. A sub-1000$ WR like the K200D was really great. I hope the rumoured K-r is WR. IMHO Pentax marketing never did enough to emphasize the WR advantage on other cameras. This is the niche Pentax needs to survive.

They also need to build more rugged waterproof P&S and leave the sub-200$ P&S sector (or sell these cameras under another brand). That would reinforce the image of being the outdoor brand with quality products. Right now I'm afraid Pentax mostly means discounted cameras with sub-par performance.

That's why for their mirrorless they should go a step further and not being only WR but completely waterproof down to a few meters. Why not have a special mount where you could adapt a plastic housing over the lens? I would have loved this camera when I was in the pool or on the beach during my vacations with the kids.

OTOH I don't think they need to enter the FF market until FF becomes really mainstream (I mean market share well above the current 5%). Unless they can do it with few resources and R&D. It wouldn't make money but at least would give the brand some sheen. This also would give the perception that Pentax belong to the big boys once again.

Christopher M.W.T · 08-15-2010, 04:47 AM

And hence why the need for better accessories before FF.

Ie WR flash/rugged flash equipment.

What good is a tough outdoor SLR camera when your expensive flash could break off in a wind gust (ok excuse the hyperbole but you get the idea....)

Originally posted by ManuH

I would have thought that after the K-7 they at last took a clear direction: build rugged cameras with affordable weathersealing. They re-released the 18-55mm and 55-200mm as WR lenses. All was good but then they released the non-WR K-x and didn't follow up on the mid-range K200D. They should have released the K300D: same electronics as the K-x, same WR body as the K200D, it would have been so easy, almost no R&D and a third model to close the big gap between K-x and K-7. I know, maybe the K-7 sales would have been cannibalized? I don't think so, the K-7 still has many unique features.

Now let's look at the PopPhoto cover, the K-7 is deemed best buy outdoor camera. I think Pentax should really capitalize on that. WR is the only feature the other makers don't have at these price point. A sub-1000$ WR like the K200D was really great. I hope the rumoured K-r is WR. IMHO Pentax marketing never did enough to emphasize the WR advantage on other cameras. This is the niche Pentax needs to survive.

They also need to build more rugged waterproof P&S and leave the sub-200$ P&S sector (or sell these cameras under another brand). That would reinforce the image of being the outdoor brand with quality products. Right now I'm afraid Pentax mostly means discounted cameras with sub-par performance.

That's why for their mirrorless they should go a step further and not being only WR but completely waterproof down to a few meters. Why not have a special mount where you could adapt a plastic housing over the lens? I would have loved this camera when I was in the pool or on the beach during my vacations with the kids.

OTOH I don't think they need to enter the FF market until FF becomes really mainstream (I mean market share well above the current 5%). Unless they can do it with few resources and R&D. It wouldn't make money but at least would give the brand some sheen. This also would give the perception that Pentax belong to the big boys once again.

Last edited by Christopher M.W.T; 08-15-2010 at 05:07 AM.

Boris · 08-15-2010, 05:11 AM

Originally posted by Christopher M.W.T

Ie WR flash/rugged flash equipment.

May I ask you or anyone else who happens to know to give an example of existing rugged flash unit, no matter for which camera system it is made? Thanks in advance.

Christopher M.W.T · 08-15-2010, 05:34 AM

Originally posted by Boris

May I ask you or anyone else who happens to know to give an example of existing rugged flash unit, no matter for which camera system it is made? Thanks in advance.

Shalom!

Yes the Nikon Sb900 and Canon EX580 MKii

Both in comparison to the Af540 are built far more sturdy and stronger than the Pentax flash.

Have environmental seals and a far more solid build and feel.

It's really the ONLY major area I can fault Pentax now is the lack of a suitably built flash to match.

Kenn100D · 08-15-2010, 06:07 AM

I think there was news about the Wr Flash comint out to suit WR Macro

Last edited by Kenn100D; 08-15-2010 at 06:07 AM. Reason: news

Christopher M.W.T · 08-15-2010, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by Kenn100D

I think there was news about the Wr Flash comint out to suit WR Macro

Where?

**rparmar** · 08-15-2010, 07:21 AM

Pentax strength is in WR so, yes, a WR flash is needed. And also a teleconverter.

But the number one thing I desire is a tilt/shift mount to which we can attach 645 lenses. It makes so much sense: the mount itself is only mechanical and need not cost the moon, even if well engineered. The lenses are already out there with more to be released to accompany the 645D. This would interest MF sghooters in a smaller companion camera and APS-C shooters in getting 645 lenses, lessening the blow when they "move up" to something much better than FF.

Tilt/shift is so essential to landscape photography, which is where Pentax are placed. And also architecture, which could be a new growth market (small market for sure). People buy into Canon only for their tilt/shift and spend a fortune.

**Aristophanes** · 08-15-2010, 07:25 AM

Originally posted by Winder

The argument is that all things being equal the larger sensor will produce a better image, but NOBODY can produce a real world image to prove this.

I know a lot of people want to argue the point, but all I care about is actual proof. No theory...... no computer models..... no number crunching or quantum physics..... produce actual images to prove the point.

Flickr.

jogiba · 08-15-2010, 07:25 AM

Ok, now that the $10,000 40mp 645D is done Pentax should at least show a prototype FF K mount HDSLR or FF EVIL next month at Photokina. Be the first with 1080p60 and EVF and make my day.

**Aristophanes** · 08-15-2010, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by jogiba

Ok, now that the $10,000 40mp 645D is done Pentax should at least show a prototype FF K mount HDSLR or FF EVIL next month at Photokina. Be the first with 1080p60 and EVF and make my day.

I predict 3 lenses from Pentax at Photokina, 2 of which are FF-compatible. That will be the hint. The outlier lens will be a cheap 30-35mm, DA only (non-investment glass).

A mid-level body between K-x and K-7. K-x moves down a price point. K-7 is effectively replaced by a newer flagship, though it might persist as an inventory model.

Mirrorless proof of concept behind glass. Lots of talk about the 645D.

Christopher M.W.T · 08-15-2010, 07:33 AM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

I predict 3 lenses from Pentax at Photokina, 2 of which are FF-compatible. That will be the hint. The outlier lens will be a cheap 30-35mm, DA only (non-investment glass).

A mid-level body between K-x and K-7. K-x moves down a price point. K-7 is effectively replaced by a newer flagship, though it might persist as an inventory model.

Mirrorless proof of concept behind glass. Lots of talk about the 645D.

Predict or you know more than your admitting?

**rparmar** · 08-15-2010, 07:37 AM

Pentax strength is in WR so, yes, a WR flash is needed. And also a teleconverter.

But the number one thing I desire is a tilt/shift mount to which we can attach 645 lenses. It makes so much sense: the mount itself is only mechanical and need not cost the moon, even if well engineered. The lenses are already out there with more to be released to accompany the 645D. This would interest MF shooters in a smaller companion camera and APS-C shooters in getting 645 lenses, lessening the blow when they "move up" to something even better than FF.

Tilt/shift is so essential to landscape photography, which is where Pentax places themselves in the market. And it's also vital in architecture, which could be a new growth market. It's a small market for sure, but photogs buy into Canon only for their tilt/shift and spend a fortune. Pentax could steal this market segment quite easily, which would further help establish their kudos.

Winder · 08-15-2010, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by youky63

OK, I (and my bank account) want to believe you. So, now, since there is real world examples, please, show us.

Take a look at the GH1. 4/3 sensor that is out performing most APS-C sensors on the market. GH1 has the same pixel density as the 18MP 7D.

The GH1 is an older sensor that is going to be replaced in the GH2 next month, but it still holds its own against the new 7D.

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08-15-2010, 02:47 AM	#391
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by Winder People have stated that size is the biggest factor in sensor performance at high-ISO, and I disagree. This is a misunderstanding. What people have stated is that a) everything else being equal size determines high-ISO performance and b) pixel-pitch (or pixel size if you like) has no bearing on high-ISO performance. Of course, noisy A/D converters, etc. can have a higher influence on high-ISO performance than sensor size. Originally posted by Winder There are real world examples of smaller sensors of the same technology level out performing larger sensors, or performing at comparable levels. You cannot use real world examples where large technological differences are involved to conclude that pixel-pitch is the determining factor. By the same token, you could conclude from real world examples that having even-toed hoofs makes you have a multi-chambered stomach. For every animal you can observe that's true but there is no causality. Your case is worse since your hypothesis does not even hold for all observable sensors.

08-15-2010, 03:26 AM	#392
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by falconeye I invite more contributions about what Pentax should communicate and do in the next 2 years though. It would be good to know what Pentax think their target audience is. Is it just the outdoors type who will never need tethered shooting? Or do they aim to build cameras useful for studio use as well? Will they keep manufacturing lenses for portrait photographers? Are there any plans to cater for birders? It will be difficult for Pentax to commit to specific products and features but if they said "XY is our main target market" then people would have a chance to check whether they feel they are in this market or not.

08-15-2010, 04:41 AM	#393
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	Originally posted by Class A It would be good to know what Pentax think their target audience is. Is it just the outdoors type who will never need tethered shooting? I would have thought that after the K-7 they at last took a clear direction: build rugged cameras with affordable weathersealing. They re-released the 18-55mm and 55-200mm as WR lenses. All was good but then they released the non-WR K-x and didn't follow up on the mid-range K200D. They should have released the K300D: same electronics as the K-x, same WR body as the K200D, it would have been so easy, almost no R&D and a third model to close the big gap between K-x and K-7. I know, maybe the K-7 sales would have been cannibalized? I don't think so, the K-7 still has many unique features. Now let's look at the PopPhoto cover, the K-7 is deemed best buy outdoor camera. I think Pentax should really capitalize on that. WR is the only feature the other makers don't have at these price point. A sub-1000$ WR like the K200D was really great. I hope the rumoured K-r is WR. IMHO Pentax marketing never did enough to emphasize the WR advantage on other cameras. This is the niche Pentax needs to survive. They also need to build more rugged waterproof P&S and leave the sub-200$ P&S sector (or sell these cameras under another brand). That would reinforce the image of being the outdoor brand with quality products. Right now I'm afraid Pentax mostly means discounted cameras with sub-par performance. That's why for their mirrorless they should go a step further and not being only WR but completely waterproof down to a few meters. Why not have a special mount where you could adapt a plastic housing over the lens? I would have loved this camera when I was in the pool or on the beach during my vacations with the kids. OTOH I don't think they need to enter the FF market until FF becomes really mainstream (I mean market share well above the current 5%). Unless they can do it with few resources and R&D. It wouldn't make money but at least would give the brand some sheen. This also would give the perception that Pentax belong to the big boys once again.

08-15-2010, 04:47 AM	#394
Christopher M.W.T Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,689	And hence why the need for better accessories before FF. Ie WR flash/rugged flash equipment. What good is a tough outdoor SLR camera when your expensive flash could break off in a wind gust (ok excuse the hyperbole but you get the idea....) Originally posted by ManuH I would have thought that after the K-7 they at last took a clear direction: build rugged cameras with affordable weathersealing. They re-released the 18-55mm and 55-200mm as WR lenses. All was good but then they released the non-WR K-x and didn't follow up on the mid-range K200D. They should have released the K300D: same electronics as the K-x, same WR body as the K200D, it would have been so easy, almost no R&D and a third model to close the big gap between K-x and K-7. I know, maybe the K-7 sales would have been cannibalized? I don't think so, the K-7 still has many unique features. Now let's look at the PopPhoto cover, the K-7 is deemed best buy outdoor camera. I think Pentax should really capitalize on that. WR is the only feature the other makers don't have at these price point. A sub-1000$ WR like the K200D was really great. I hope the rumoured K-r is WR. IMHO Pentax marketing never did enough to emphasize the WR advantage on other cameras. This is the niche Pentax needs to survive. They also need to build more rugged waterproof P&S and leave the sub-200$ P&S sector (or sell these cameras under another brand). That would reinforce the image of being the outdoor brand with quality products. Right now I'm afraid Pentax mostly means discounted cameras with sub-par performance. That's why for their mirrorless they should go a step further and not being only WR but completely waterproof down to a few meters. Why not have a special mount where you could adapt a plastic housing over the lens? I would have loved this camera when I was in the pool or on the beach during my vacations with the kids. OTOH I don't think they need to enter the FF market until FF becomes really mainstream (I mean market share well above the current 5%). Unless they can do it with few resources and R&D. It wouldn't make money but at least would give the brand some sheen. This also would give the perception that Pentax belong to the big boys once again. Last edited by Christopher M.W.T; 08-15-2010 at 05:07 AM.

08-15-2010, 05:11 AM	#395
Boris Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Israel Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 932	Originally posted by Christopher M.W.T Ie WR flash/rugged flash equipment. May I ask you or anyone else who happens to know to give an example of existing rugged flash unit, no matter for which camera system it is made? Thanks in advance.

08-15-2010, 05:34 AM	#396
Christopher M.W.T Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,689	Originally posted by Boris May I ask you or anyone else who happens to know to give an example of existing rugged flash unit, no matter for which camera system it is made? Thanks in advance. Shalom! Yes the Nikon Sb900 and Canon EX580 MKii Both in comparison to the Af540 are built far more sturdy and stronger than the Pentax flash. Have environmental seals and a far more solid build and feel. It's really the ONLY major area I can fault Pentax now is the lack of a suitably built flash to match.

08-15-2010, 06:07 AM	#397
Kenn100D Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Paranaque City, Philippines Photos: Gallery Posts: 697	I think there was news about the Wr Flash comint out to suit WR Macro Last edited by Kenn100D; 08-15-2010 at 06:07 AM. Reason: news

08-15-2010, 07:19 AM	#398
Christopher M.W.T Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,689	Originally posted by Kenn100D I think there was news about the Wr Flash comint out to suit WR Macro Where?

08-15-2010, 07:21 AM	#399
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,819	Pentax strength is in WR so, yes, a WR flash is needed. And also a teleconverter. But the number one thing I desire is a tilt/shift mount to which we can attach 645 lenses. It makes so much sense: the mount itself is only mechanical and need not cost the moon, even if well engineered. The lenses are already out there with more to be released to accompany the 645D. This would interest MF sghooters in a smaller companion camera and APS-C shooters in getting 645 lenses, lessening the blow when they "move up" to something much better than FF. Tilt/shift is so essential to landscape photography, which is where Pentax are placed. And also architecture, which could be a new growth market (small market for sure). People buy into Canon only for their tilt/shift and spend a fortune.

08-15-2010, 07:25 AM	#400
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by Winder The argument is that all things being equal the larger sensor will produce a better image, but NOBODY can produce a real world image to prove this. I know a lot of people want to argue the point, but all I care about is actual proof. No theory...... no computer models..... no number crunching or quantum physics..... produce actual images to prove the point. Flickr.

08-15-2010, 07:25 AM	#401
jogiba Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Millstone,NJ Posts: 6,491	Ok, now that the $10,000 40mp 645D is done Pentax should at least show a prototype FF K mount HDSLR or FF EVIL next month at Photokina. Be the first with 1080p60 and EVF and make my day.

08-15-2010, 07:31 AM	#402
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by jogiba Ok, now that the $10,000 40mp 645D is done Pentax should at least show a prototype FF K mount HDSLR or FF EVIL next month at Photokina. Be the first with 1080p60 and EVF and make my day. I predict 3 lenses from Pentax at Photokina, 2 of which are FF-compatible. That will be the hint. The outlier lens will be a cheap 30-35mm, DA only (non-investment glass). A mid-level body between K-x and K-7. K-x moves down a price point. K-7 is effectively replaced by a newer flagship, though it might persist as an inventory model. Mirrorless proof of concept behind glass. Lots of talk about the 645D.

08-15-2010, 07:33 AM	#403
Christopher M.W.T Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,689	Originally posted by Aristophanes I predict 3 lenses from Pentax at Photokina, 2 of which are FF-compatible. That will be the hint. The outlier lens will be a cheap 30-35mm, DA only (non-investment glass). A mid-level body between K-x and K-7. K-x moves down a price point. K-7 is effectively replaced by a newer flagship, though it might persist as an inventory model. Mirrorless proof of concept behind glass. Lots of talk about the 645D. Predict or you know more than your admitting?

08-15-2010, 07:37 AM	#404
rparmar Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,819	Pentax strength is in WR so, yes, a WR flash is needed. And also a teleconverter. But the number one thing I desire is a tilt/shift mount to which we can attach 645 lenses. It makes so much sense: the mount itself is only mechanical and need not cost the moon, even if well engineered. The lenses are already out there with more to be released to accompany the 645D. This would interest MF shooters in a smaller companion camera and APS-C shooters in getting 645 lenses, lessening the blow when they "move up" to something even better than FF. Tilt/shift is so essential to landscape photography, which is where Pentax places themselves in the market. And it's also vital in architecture, which could be a new growth market. It's a small market for sure, but photogs buy into Canon only for their tilt/shift and spend a fortune. Pentax could steal this market segment quite easily, which would further help establish their kudos.

08-15-2010, 08:17 AM	#405
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by youky63 OK, I (and my bank account) want to believe you. So, now, since there is real world examples, please, show us. Take a look at the GH1. 4/3 sensor that is out performing most APS-C sensors on the market. GH1 has the same pixel density as the 18MP 7D. The GH1 is an older sensor that is going to be replaced in the GH2 next month, but it still holds its own against the new 7D.