[glanglois]

Better read this then:
Pentax representative: Full frame Pentax DSLR in 2010 | Photo Rumors

A rumor from October of 2009? I think we'll have to do better than that.

Please keep digging, though.

[Aristophanes]

I just did. Here: Bildqualität | Testberichte | dkamera.de | Das Digitalkamera-Magazin
More exactly GH1 vs 550D (same sensor than 7D) since there is no 7D. I compared many settings, day light, night light, all in RAW (process jpeg don't say anything about processor results) and I see: about 2 stops advantage for the Canon. Not kidding!
Another example?

Have you actually looked at the DxO tests?

The GH1 even outperforms a hypothetical four-thirds sensor cut from a (wider) Canon EOS 7D sensor (with the same pixel size). With its 50% larger sensor surface (corresponding to 9 DxOMark Sensor points), one would expect the 7D to have outperformed the GH1 by 9 points. Instead, it achieves a DxOMark score of 64.9 — only slightly more than 1 point above the GH1’s score of 63.6.

The DR of the GH1 is "vastly superior" to the K-7, and very, very close the the 7D. The GH1 is the oldest of the three & the smallest of the three. The K-7 has the largest of the three and yet it is the poorest performing sensor of the three.....

I've used the GH-1 and K-x and K-7.

DP Review:

Dynamic Range compared

"At standard JPEG settings the GH1 delivers less dynamic range than its closest competitors from the DSLR department. The Canon 500D and Nikon D5000 - both cameras with a larger APS-C format sensor - produce approximately 0.5 EV and 1.0 EV respectively more highlight range and have a more gentle roll-off."

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH1 Review: 16. Photographic tests (DR): Digital Photography Review

Note how the 4/3 E-620 has to use software to get the equivalent to an APS-C.

It's simple math. You start with less light, you'll see less light.

OK that wasn't math. More like poetry. But it gets the message across that was made decisively in DxO's own marks about sensor size. You have to pull rabbits out hats to make a 4/3 sensor "see" what a larger sensor does.

[Winder]

I've used the GH-1 and K-x and K-7.

DP Review:

Dynamic Range compared

"At standard JPEG settings the GH1 delivers less dynamic range than its closest competitors from the DSLR department. The Canon 500D and Nikon D5000 - both cameras with a larger APS-C format sensor - produce approximately 0.5 EV and 1.0 EV respectively more highlight range and have a more gentle roll-off."

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH1 Review: 16. Photographic tests (DR): Digital Photography Review

Note how the 4/3 E-620 has to use software to get the equivalent to an APS-C.

It's simple math. You start with less light, you'll see less light.

OK that wasn't math. More like poetry. But it gets the message across that was made decisively in DxO's own marks about sensor size. You have to pull rabbits out hats to make a 4/3 sensor "see" what a larger sensor does.

The JPEG engine on the GH1 is pretty poor, and not a good indicator of RAW performance. The DxO test is looking at RAW.

The E-620 might be relevant to the discussion IF it had the same sensor or image processor..... or even the same brand of camera. The E-620 has nothing in common with the GH1.

[Mark Castleman]

I have been following this thread and find quite a bit of similarity with discussions about music formats and computers. People who consider themselves audiophiles cannot fathom why everyone does not use a lossless format. The Macintosh faithful cannot grasp why anyone would want a iPad when they could have the newest MacBook Pro. From where I sit the answer to both is that AAC (or MP3) and iPads are good enough for a sufficient number of people.

I think a similar process is happening here. A substantial majority of people in this group have been interested in photography for a long time, but we are not representative of the photographing public. A large number of people have never owned a film SLR and a dSLR seems very expensive (to them) when there are other options that are good enough. At my school's graduation back in May I would say that for over half the families there the only record of their kid's graduation will be the photos in the iPhone, in fact I saw more iPhones (and other camera phones) than cameras of any sort. For most of my students their phone will probably always be their camera also, they see no reason to spend more to carry something extra.

These are the people that all the camera makers are trying to woo, and they have decided to go with EVF cameras because these consumers, for the most part, do not want to carry around lenses and flashes and things like that. They are happy with something that takes better pictures than the phone. I know several people who never move the pictures off the camera (or phone), they just show them on the screen and then delete them, though some will upload them to Facebook.

What it comes down to, as I see it, is that the masses who spend the most money don't care if a camera looks "serious" or "professional" but rather does it take photos that look acceptable on Facebook. There are actually a lot of people who have heard of Pentax (Aren't they the ones who make the cameras in different colors?) and some of them my buy a dSLR someday but if they do they will get the kit and probably never buy anything else and never take the camera off the Green Box mode. A bigger problem for Pentax is (and the Denver area is not alone in this) there is no place where you can see one of their cameras and the average consumer does want to hold something before spending what is, to most people, a lot of money.

[rparmar]

There is another 3rd party shift option now. Oly made a 24mm and 35mm shift lens and a Leitax adapter for Oly/Pentax. The 24 is a little bit wider than the Pentax 28mm.

The Zuiko 24/3.5 was shift only, no tilt, just like Pentax's own (ancient) solution. There was also the Arsat adapter for Pentacon Six lenses. All half-measures.

[Aristophanes]

I have been following this thread and find quite a bit of similarity with discussions about music formats and computers. People who consider themselves audiophiles cannot fathom why everyone does not use a lossless format. The Macintosh faithful cannot grasp why anyone would want a iPad when they could have the newest MacBook Pro. From where I sit the answer to both is that AAC (or MP3) and iPads are good enough for a sufficient number of people.

I think a similar process is happening here. A substantial majority of people in this group have been interested in photography for a long time, but we are not representative of the photographing public. A large number of people have never owned a film SLR and a dSLR seems very expensive (to them) when there are other options that are good enough. At my school's graduation back in May I would say that for over half the families there the only record of their kid's graduation will be the photos in the iPhone, in fact I saw more iPhones (and other camera phones) than cameras of any sort. For most of my students their phone will probably always be their camera also, they see no reason to spend more to carry something extra.

These are the people that all the camera makers are trying to woo, and they have decided to go with EVF cameras because these consumers, for the most part, do not want to carry around lenses and flashes and things like that. They are happy with something that takes better pictures than the phone. I know several people who never move the pictures off the camera (or phone), they just show them on the screen and then delete them, though some will upload them to Facebook.

What it comes down to, as I see it, is that the masses who spend the most money don't care if a camera looks "serious" or "professional" but rather does it take photos that look acceptable on Facebook. There are actually a lot of people who have heard of Pentax (Aren't they the ones who make the cameras in different colors?) and some of them my buy a dSLR someday but if they do they will get the kit and probably never buy anything else and never take the camera off the Green Box mode. A bigger problem for Pentax is (and the Denver area is not alone in this) there is no place where you can see one of their cameras and the average consumer does want to hold something before spending what is, to most people, a lot of money.

For a Facebook photo, almost any recent main brand P&S will do. Do you think most people who buy a DSLR use AE-L? No, they buy on spec, and a great many over-purchase. If Canon comes out with a FF body that rivals the $1,500 price range, people will buy it simply because it is "bigger" and "better" than the other guy's "smaller" APS-C sensor.

The vast majority are not going to write letters asking for FF. That's not and never has been a driving force behind most consumer demand. Demand is driven by disposable income, cultural desire, marketing, and capital cost to deliver the product at a profit. Pentax has serious marketing issues in North America, no doubt about it. Their major problem with regards to FF is how swiftly the production cost curve of FF sensors drops. If it drops too fast and they are not ready, their flagship cameras will simply not sell and everything other than that is in deep trouble. Shareholders would kill management if they did not have an FF roadmap laid out for that eventuality.

Again, I suspect Pentax will keep the door wide open to FF through its lens offerings, not via direct announcement. I also think that no FF announcement will cause a substantial #of defections amongst longtime Pentaxians and a significant, noticeable drop in lens revenues. An enormous amount of disposable income and gross revenues from Canikon are in their higher-end lenses where margins can reach 40%. Pentax will simply not be able to slog along selling DA L stuff on APS-C with a 6% margin back to the mothership.

[jpzk]

The K-5 will be APSC with higher price and some better specs than K-7 and both, K-7 and K-5 will sell side by side for some time.

This is known already.

The reason why I wrote my article is that questions which I feel need an urgent answer are not being answered at Photokina 2010.

And of course, to excercise a bit of pressure onto Pentax to meet common expectations (like yours) and do provide some answers at least.


To speak only for myself ... The K-5 is not an answer to a question which I did ask. Nevertheless, I hope and feel the K-5 will be a great camera of course. After all, better AF, better high ISO and better dynamic range are high on the list of many (even myself although for the time being I enjoy my K-7 as it is)

Maybe some answers are not meant to be divulged, even "leaked" just quite yet?

Well, I wonder if that will make me want to "upgrade" to a "K5" which, by the way, would carry a name that doesn't quite follow with the upgrade-path-naming-convention ... K10 ...K20 ...K7 ... and why not a K8? Anyway, that is polemics only and doesn't mean a thing for the moment.
If, and only IF, this newbie comes with a better high-ISO handling sensor, and perhaps an AF which has more "locking" abilities, perhaps upgrading would be in my plans. But, it better be as good as the K7 for the rest of the features.

Now, let's go back a bit and talk FF: would one be shooting oneself in the foot by "upgrading" to a K5 while Pentax has an FF in store in their gameplan?

As far as I am concerned, and because of the type of photography I do most of the time, better AF and high-ISO handling would be two very important things to me. But again, would a future FF Pentax cause me grief and make me say: "Oh Gosh! Why didn't I wait a few more months for this fabulous FF instead of having indulged in a "K5"?
But Hey! Maybe Pentax will be offering an FF which will also be compatible with existing DA's and DA*'s!?

I suppose I will just have to wait and see what's really coming at Photokina 2010 and, should a "K5" comes out, be patient and wait for reviews first before jumping in.
As you, I am quite satisfied with the K7 for the time being but, like many here, I expect something more than "satisfactory".

Lots of speculations ... a few weeks for the revelations!

Cheers!

JP

A rumor from October of 2009? I think we'll have to do better than that.

Please keep digging, though.

READ IT AGAIN! yes it says october of 2009

[Kunzite]

jpzk, the K-5 name make sense - if we're talking about a higher-level camera than K-7. And it is consistent with the naming system used for the film cameras (e.g. MZ-series, where the MZ-5 was above MZ-7/MZ-6).

Aristophanes, who would buy the 1500$ "FF"? Certainly, not those who buy Rebels... But since we have the more than 1500$ APS-C camera (and it's selling!) why would Canon launch a cheaper "FF"?
Do you know what Pentax is learning from such discussions? That they shouldn't launch a "FF", because pentaxians won't buy one - if it'll cost more than a high-end APS-C.

[Spag]

I really wonder what will make this K-5 so interesting... I mean if it's just a better high ISO performance and a lightly improved AF or FPS, that will not be enough for me to change... I guess it could attract people still shooting with a K10D / K20D, but appart from them, who else?

If I didn't hate Canon ergonomics that much, I'd probably switch for a 5d MkII + Canon TS-E 17mm f/4 L already...

[ogl]

I really wonder what will make this K-5 so interesting... I mean if it's just a better high ISO performance and a lightly improved AF or FPS, that will not be enough for me to change... I guess it could attract people still shooting with a K10D / K20D, but appart from them, who else?

If I didn't hate Canon ergonomics that much, I'd probably switch for a 5d MkII + Canon TS-E 17mm f/4 L already...

Better high ISO and AF systems are not enough to build good sales. Only FF or something unique can help to survive.
Pentax must attract a lot of users of K10/20/200/K-7 and K-x/K-m...
To take new users who knows only Canon/Nikon is a hard task...


New video modes - I don't care at all. I like photo, not video.

I'm afraid new APS-C camera with just minor upgrade of K-7
(yes, it's minor upgrade for me - video, new APS-C sensor with smaller pixels and AF) will help to make one more step to the death of Pentax.

[Christopher M.W.T]

Better high ISO and AF systems are not enough to build good sales. Only FF or something unique can help to survive.
Pentax must attract a lot of users of K10/20/200/K-7 and K-x/K-m...
To take new users who knows only Canon/Nikon are hard task...


New video modes - I don't care at all. I like photo, not video.

I'm afraid new APS-C camera with just minor upgarde of K-7
(yes, it's minor upgrade for me - video, new APS-C sensor with smaller pixels and AF) will help to make one more step to the death of Pentax.

From memory I don't recall Olympus doing anything bigger than 4/3 and they seem to be doing ok.

[rawr]

Following on from ogl's post, it's clear that there will soon be a slew of interesting Photokina related announcements from Sony, Nikon and Canon about new DSLR's and lenses that will attract lots and lots of publicity, blog posts, forum discussions, articles etc.

To get noticed, Pentax will really need to pull a big rabbit out of the hat at Photokina. A FF announcement would do that, I guess. It might be a limited market for them, but it would certainly help them make a splash and gain some buzz.

[dopeytree]

I don't see a full frame coming out this year..

I'm a photojournalism student. Just finished my first year.

I'm considering selling my k-7, da* 50-135mm f2.8, da 35mm macro 2.8, da 12-24mm f/4 to get a canon 5d+28mm f2.8/1.8 and maybe a 85mm 2.8

Want I want is a wide fast prime from pentax like 2.8 or above. I think we'll see these fast lenses but they will be for the EVIL camera therefore not full frame.

[Vaikis_]

wait till photokina, Pentax will pull a big rabbit, believe me !!! You all would be suprised, can't tell more