Win a Pentax Limited Lens: Raffle Now Live!

**Aristophanes** · 08-20-2010, 08:14 AM

Originally posted by TaoMaas

Maybe...but maybe not. One thing that I think you guys are overlooking is that the market for FF pics among the pro crowd is diminishing, not growing. Still photography is primarily a print-driven media. It's no secret that the market for newpapers and magazines is shrinking at an incredible rate. Even commercial advertising photography is largely dependent upon print media. So, once our print media is gone, who will want high-quality stills? That just leaves the enthusiast market...and that's a pretty divided area.

Originally posted by ManuH

Good book, I bought it but I don't find it fantastic, it's a bit dry compared to Peterson's books. Although Peterson is maybe too commercial...

I like both, but Peterson is more sentimental and a cliche photographer. Which is fine because that's by far the majority of the market and the vernacular attempt. He's the average person's "make it better and understand how" photographer. His contributions to photography are indispensable.

Freeman is about composition, style, mood, and moment. He tells you why a photo is visually arresting, and hints at why one photo is "better" than another in composition and choices made through the VF. He helps not just make a better exposure, but how make photographic art.

My 2 bit summaries.

TaoMaas · 08-20-2010, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

The big concern for pros is "pixel peeping" of their work and maintaining fidelity at very high resolution on very large screens in the future.

Where do you see these very large, high resolution screens being used? I'm having trouble coming up with a viable scenario for this.

**ManuH** · 08-20-2010, 08:16 AM

Originally posted by ilya80

They outsourced their MF sensor from Kodak, and Kodak has 35mm sized sensors on sale too.

The Kodak sensor is not marketable, it's CCD with no live view, no video and poor high-ISO.

ogl · 08-20-2010, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by ManuH

The Kodak sensor is not marketable, it's CCD with no live view, no video and poor high-ISO.

It's cool....No video.

Anyway, video and LV is real with CCD.

High ISO from M9 is not bad at all. It's a question of software.

Kunzite · 08-20-2010, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by deejjjaaaa

Samsung certainly designed and manufactured sensor for Samsung in the first place, Pentax was welcome to share the cost (or provide a guaranteed market). What worked well for Pentax was Sony sensor in Kx, not Samsung sensor in K7.

You're saying this, but is it the truth?
Can you name the Samsung cameras, for which that sensor was developed? Maybe Samsung had plans for the NX or some DSLRs they never made, but the sensor was made for and used in Pentax cameras.

deejjjaaaa · 08-20-2010, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

You're saying this, but is it the truth?
Can you name the Samsung cameras, for which that sensor was developed? Maybe Samsung had plans for the NX or some DSLRs they never made, but the sensor was made for and used in Pentax cameras.

Samsung, not Pentax, had plans to become the N1 in dSLR and unlike Nikon who was the established name and can live for a while with Sony Semiconductor sensors which they started to use when Sony Imaging was nowhere near dSLR business themselves - Samsung was determined to make sensors for their cameras themselves as they have knowledge, technology and manufacturing capabilities and were interested to compete w/ Sony companies on all fronts and they did... as for using Pentax cameras - they simply decided to try to use Kmount because they were not considering Pentax as something that was a threat or competition (competition for Samsuns were certainly C/N/S) and Pentax agreed to exchange...

eventually Samsung plan w/ dSLRs did not happen, so they switched to NX line and continue to work on its sensor according to its plans (this time for NX) and that was what Pentax had to use in K7.

You can continue to believe that Samsung was interested to develop sensors for a minor player and not for its own announced plans to dominate the market.

Rico · 08-20-2010, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by deejjjaaaa

Ok, to make it more clear for you - why Sony Imaging is not asking Sony Semiconductor to make it ? or Nikon for that matter... Pentax just have neither money nor potential to sell enough for Sony Semiconductor to bother itself w/ anything but selling what they designed for Sony Imaging already... Pentax is free to take it and tune it further on its own, which they certainly can, but that's it.

sure, it just cost something otherwise we will have APS-H sensors hanging on every tree in da hood.

Samsumg certainly designed and manufactured sensor for Samsung in the first place, Pentax was welcome to share the cost (or provide a guaranteed market). What worked well for Pentax was Sony sensor in Kx, not Samsung sensor in K7.

deejjjaaaa I think you answered your own question. Sony Semiconductor isn't making an APS-H sensor because Sony Imaging didn't ask them too. As you pointed out Nikon hasn't ask them to either.

Most everything cost something that is a given. A larger sensor would most likely incur higher cost.

The Samsung sensor in my K-7 has worked very well for me. I don't see why it didn't work well for Pentax either. As I said the partnership between Pentax and Samsung has been very fruitful. With more competition the better the technologies get.

An APS-H sensor works better for Pentax's lens line up too.

Kunzite · 08-20-2010, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by deejjjaaaa

Samsung, not Pentax, had plans to become the N1 in dSLR
[...]
You can continue to believe that Samsung was interested to develop sensors for a minor player and not for its own announced plans to dominate the market.

You 're avoiding my question. With which cameras did Samsung tried to become no 1?
The sensor was designed for the cameras it was used on. But, you can believe otherwise...

Winder · 08-20-2010, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

You 're avoiding my question. With which cameras did Samsung tried to become no 1?
The sensor was designed for the cameras it was used on. But, you can believe otherwise...

Samsung made a statement last year about planning on becoming #1 in the EVIL camera market over the next few years. I believe they expect to claim 30% of the market share.

Samsung has been pretty busy developing sensors, but we have not seen any of their new sensors released yet.

civiletti · 08-20-2010, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by Rico

The Samsung sensor in my K-7 has worked very well for me. I don't see why it didn't work well for Pentax either.

Perhaps the answer is in the relative sales volume of the K7 and Kx. A camera with the features and build of the K7 should sell better. Perhaps the sensor contribution to IQ turned buyers away - It did me.

Winder · 08-20-2010, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by civiletti

Perhaps the answer is in the relative sales volume of the K7 and Kx. A camera with the features and build of the K7 should sell better. Perhaps the sensor contribution to IQ turned buyers away - It did me.

The K-7 only suffers at high ISO. At base ISO it has excellent IQ and in many ways better color and tonal range an any of the competitors. DR is probably the biggest weakness.

deejjjaaaa · 08-20-2010, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by Winder

At base ISO it has excellent IQ and in many ways better color and tonal range an any of the competitors.

beaten in both areas by Kx, even normalized for print to account for different amount of pixels according to DxOMark.

PS: at lowest ISO its DR is less than tiny P&S sensor from panasonic in LX3 has

deejjjaaaa · 08-20-2010, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

You 're avoiding my question. With which cameras did Samsung tried to become no 1?
The sensor was designed for the cameras it was used on. But, you can believe otherwise...

with cameras that have Samsung logo on them... not Pentax, Pentax was supposed to be a jackal tolerated while Samsung will take on real players... That was Samsung line of thinking, they failed w/ dSLRs, now they try w/ EVIL cameras...

Peter Zack · 08-20-2010, 03:43 PM

Are you guys still at this? Like an endless spiral staircase

I can't wait till the show and the next debate thread gets started.

Rico · 08-20-2010, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by civiletti

Perhaps the answer is in the relative sales volume of the K7 and Kx. A camera with the features and build of the K7 should sell better. Perhaps the sensor contribution to IQ turned buyers away - It did me.

I don't know how you can compare relative sales volume of the K-7 and Kx as they are totally different target markets at different target prices or how we know whether or not the K-7 with its features and build should sell better. To my knowledge only Pentax and Hoya have access to such data.

I find it a pity people for some reason perceive the image quality of the K-7 somehow to be inferior in regards to what standards I am not sure to keep people from buying one. At no point owning the K-7 have I said to myself if only I had such and such sensor my images would be better. The K-7 to my eyes produce images with a very film like look with a better sense of space than the more plastic digital smoothed over look of similar cameras. The K-7 is a great camera to work with ergonomically for me there isn't a better camera on the market.

Of course I am all for an improved K-7. Lets hope Photokina brings continued success from Pentax.

08-20-2010, 03:38 PM	#582
deejjjaaaa Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: steel city / rust belt Posts: 2,043	Originally posted by Winder At base ISO it has excellent IQ and in many ways better color and tonal range an any of the competitors. beaten in both areas by Kx, even normalized for print to account for different amount of pixels according to DxOMark. PS: at lowest ISO its DR is less than tiny P&S sensor from panasonic in LX3 has Last edited by deejjjaaaa; 08-20-2010 at 03:46 PM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Full frame pentax	cem.kumuk	Pentax DSLR Discussion	11	11-12-2010 03:13 PM
I think the Pentax FF will be announced at Photokina 2010	whatever7	Pentax News and Rumors	106	02-04-2010 12:45 AM
Expired Theme Theme: Contest #41, January, 2010 (Frame within a Frame)	Adam	Monthly Photo Contests	11	01-21-2010 12:33 AM
The almost full frame Pentax?	denisv	Photographic Technique	44	01-19-2009 04:01 AM
New Pentax k18D - Full Frame	ebooks4pentax	Pentax DSLR Discussion	17	10-31-2007 05:46 PM

08-20-2010, 08:14 AM	#571
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by TaoMaas Maybe...but maybe not. One thing that I think you guys are overlooking is that the market for FF pics among the pro crowd is diminishing, not growing. Still photography is primarily a print-driven media. It's no secret that the market for newpapers and magazines is shrinking at an incredible rate. Even commercial advertising photography is largely dependent upon print media. So, once our print media is gone, who will want high-quality stills? That just leaves the enthusiast market...and that's a pretty divided area. Originally posted by ManuH Good book, I bought it but I don't find it fantastic, it's a bit dry compared to Peterson's books. Although Peterson is maybe too commercial... I like both, but Peterson is more sentimental and a cliche photographer. Which is fine because that's by far the majority of the market and the vernacular attempt. He's the average person's "make it better and understand how" photographer. His contributions to photography are indispensable. Freeman is about composition, style, mood, and moment. He tells you why a photo is visually arresting, and hints at why one photo is "better" than another in composition and choices made through the VF. He helps not just make a better exposure, but how make photographic art. My 2 bit summaries.

08-20-2010, 08:15 AM	#572
TaoMaas Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Oklahoma City Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,574	Originally posted by Aristophanes The big concern for pros is "pixel peeping" of their work and maintaining fidelity at very high resolution on very large screens in the future. Where do you see these very large, high resolution screens being used? I'm having trouble coming up with a viable scenario for this.

08-20-2010, 08:16 AM	#573
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	Originally posted by ilya80 They outsourced their MF sensor from Kodak, and Kodak has 35mm sized sensors on sale too. The Kodak sensor is not marketable, it's CCD with no live view, no video and poor high-ISO.

08-20-2010, 08:33 AM	#574
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by ManuH The Kodak sensor is not marketable, it's CCD with no live view, no video and poor high-ISO. It's cool....No video. Anyway, video and LV is real with CCD. High ISO from M9 is not bad at all. It's a question of software.

08-20-2010, 11:15 AM	#575
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by deejjjaaaa Samsung certainly designed and manufactured sensor for Samsung in the first place, Pentax was welcome to share the cost (or provide a guaranteed market). What worked well for Pentax was Sony sensor in Kx, not Samsung sensor in K7. You're saying this, but is it the truth? Can you name the Samsung cameras, for which that sensor was developed? Maybe Samsung had plans for the NX or some DSLRs they never made, but the sensor was made for and used in Pentax cameras.

08-20-2010, 11:42 AM	#576
deejjjaaaa Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: steel city / rust belt Posts: 2,043	Originally posted by Kunzite You're saying this, but is it the truth? Can you name the Samsung cameras, for which that sensor was developed? Maybe Samsung had plans for the NX or some DSLRs they never made, but the sensor was made for and used in Pentax cameras. Samsung, not Pentax, had plans to become the N1 in dSLR and unlike Nikon who was the established name and can live for a while with Sony Semiconductor sensors which they started to use when Sony Imaging was nowhere near dSLR business themselves - Samsung was determined to make sensors for their cameras themselves as they have knowledge, technology and manufacturing capabilities and were interested to compete w/ Sony companies on all fronts and they did... as for using Pentax cameras - they simply decided to try to use Kmount because they were not considering Pentax as something that was a threat or competition (competition for Samsuns were certainly C/N/S) and Pentax agreed to exchange... eventually Samsung plan w/ dSLRs did not happen, so they switched to NX line and continue to work on its sensor according to its plans (this time for NX) and that was what Pentax had to use in K7. You can continue to believe that Samsung was interested to develop sensors for a minor player and not for its own announced plans to dominate the market.

08-20-2010, 12:50 PM	#577
Rico Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,205	Originally posted by deejjjaaaa Ok, to make it more clear for you - why Sony Imaging is not asking Sony Semiconductor to make it ? or Nikon for that matter... Pentax just have neither money nor potential to sell enough for Sony Semiconductor to bother itself w/ anything but selling what they designed for Sony Imaging already... Pentax is free to take it and tune it further on its own, which they certainly can, but that's it. sure, it just cost something otherwise we will have APS-H sensors hanging on every tree in da hood. Samsumg certainly designed and manufactured sensor for Samsung in the first place, Pentax was welcome to share the cost (or provide a guaranteed market). What worked well for Pentax was Sony sensor in Kx, not Samsung sensor in K7. deejjjaaaa I think you answered your own question. Sony Semiconductor isn't making an APS-H sensor because Sony Imaging didn't ask them too. As you pointed out Nikon hasn't ask them to either. Most everything cost something that is a given. A larger sensor would most likely incur higher cost. The Samsung sensor in my K-7 has worked very well for me. I don't see why it didn't work well for Pentax either. As I said the partnership between Pentax and Samsung has been very fruitful. With more competition the better the technologies get. An APS-H sensor works better for Pentax's lens line up too.

08-20-2010, 01:08 PM	#578
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by deejjjaaaa Samsung, not Pentax, had plans to become the N1 in dSLR [...] You can continue to believe that Samsung was interested to develop sensors for a minor player and not for its own announced plans to dominate the market. You 're avoiding my question. With which cameras did Samsung tried to become no 1? The sensor was designed for the cameras it was used on. But, you can believe otherwise...

08-20-2010, 02:13 PM	#579
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by Kunzite You 're avoiding my question. With which cameras did Samsung tried to become no 1? The sensor was designed for the cameras it was used on. But, you can believe otherwise... Samsung made a statement last year about planning on becoming #1 in the EVIL camera market over the next few years. I believe they expect to claim 30% of the market share. Samsung has been pretty busy developing sensors, but we have not seen any of their new sensors released yet.

08-20-2010, 03:17 PM	#580
civiletti Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Oregon Photos: Albums Posts: 1,435	Originally posted by Rico The Samsung sensor in my K-7 has worked very well for me. I don't see why it didn't work well for Pentax either. Perhaps the answer is in the relative sales volume of the K7 and Kx. A camera with the features and build of the K7 should sell better. Perhaps the sensor contribution to IQ turned buyers away - It did me.

08-20-2010, 03:29 PM	#581
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by civiletti Perhaps the answer is in the relative sales volume of the K7 and Kx. A camera with the features and build of the K7 should sell better. Perhaps the sensor contribution to IQ turned buyers away - It did me. The K-7 only suffers at high ISO. At base ISO it has excellent IQ and in many ways better color and tonal range an any of the competitors. DR is probably the biggest weakness.

08-20-2010, 03:42 PM	#583
deejjjaaaa Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: steel city / rust belt Posts: 2,043	Originally posted by Kunzite You 're avoiding my question. With which cameras did Samsung tried to become no 1? The sensor was designed for the cameras it was used on. But, you can believe otherwise... with cameras that have Samsung logo on them... not Pentax, Pentax was supposed to be a jackal tolerated while Samsung will take on real players... That was Samsung line of thinking, they failed w/ dSLRs, now they try w/ EVIL cameras...

08-20-2010, 03:43 PM	#584
Peter Zack Pentaxian Moderator Emeritus Join Date: May 2007 Location: Edmonton Alberta, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 10,643	Are you guys still at this? Like an endless spiral staircase I can't wait till the show and the next debate thread gets started.

08-20-2010, 04:47 PM	#585
Rico Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,205	Originally posted by civiletti Perhaps the answer is in the relative sales volume of the K7 and Kx. A camera with the features and build of the K7 should sell better. Perhaps the sensor contribution to IQ turned buyers away - It did me. I don't know how you can compare relative sales volume of the K-7 and Kx as they are totally different target markets at different target prices or how we know whether or not the K-7 with its features and build should sell better. To my knowledge only Pentax and Hoya have access to such data. I find it a pity people for some reason perceive the image quality of the K-7 somehow to be inferior in regards to what standards I am not sure to keep people from buying one. At no point owning the K-7 have I said to myself if only I had such and such sensor my images would be better. The K-7 to my eyes produce images with a very film like look with a better sense of space than the more plastic digital smoothed over look of similar cameras. The K-7 is a great camera to work with ergonomically for me there isn't a better camera on the market. Of course I am all for an improved K-7. Lets hope Photokina brings continued success from Pentax.

Photokina 2010, Pentax and the full frame mystery

Win a Pentax Limited Lens: Raffle Now Live!