Photokina 2010, Pentax and the full frame mystery

glanglois · 08-20-2010, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by civiletti

Perhaps the answer is in the relative sales volume of the K7 and Kx. A camera with the features and build of the K7 should sell better. Perhaps the sensor contribution to IQ turned buyers away - It did me.

Given that thinking, the high-price autos/sound systems/etc. should outsell the more pedestrian models. They don't. There's a reason that the price-conscious crowd are frequently the "mass market".

In most consumer products, large unit sales are found at the middle of the price range or (perhaps more likely) more toward the bottom.

Look at how many D40s Nikon flogged for USD $449-$500. Costco put pallets of them at the end of the camera aisle. I still read posts in which rather uneducated owners are singing the praises of that camera - usually based on its low price.

I don't think Nikon sold as many D300.

But yes, I am aware that the D90 is still selling well at USD $900 or so, body only. But I expect that world-wide sales of the D90 are still less than the D3000 and D5000 combined (splitting the lower price market).

glanglois · 08-20-2010, 05:32 PM

This got entirely off topic. I'm sorry I contributed to the diversion.

Yes, I want Pentax to tell us where they're going. I believe that info will help Pentax retain many of its most loyal and energetic customer base. If they stay, that's good for me even if I don't purchase FF in the next year or two. If they bail, I have to rethink about five years of capex.

Falk, any news or rumor you can share on that topic now that we're at the 40-page mark??

falconeye · 08-20-2010, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by glanglois

Falk, any news or rumor you can share on that topic now that we're at the 40-page mark??

Oh, it's 8 pages in my setup

As for new rumors, I think that we have to wait until vacation is over here in Germany. Things should heat up when Photokina preparation enters it's hot phase. Maybe.

**loveisageless** · 08-20-2010, 08:54 PM

Just thought I'd share this link I found on our local Craig's List posting:

leica.overgaard.dk - Thorsten Overgaard's Leica Sites - Leica Digilux 2 sample photos and tests (as well as Panasonic DMC-LC1) - Page 2

It adds a little color to the debate, so to speak:-)

KungPOW · 08-20-2010, 10:33 PM

What does an essay about a 6 year old camera have to do with this thread?

It has a 2/3" sensor by the way.

civiletti · 08-20-2010, 11:07 PM

Originally posted by Rico

I don't know how you can compare relative sales volume of the K-7 and Kx as they are totally different target markets at different target prices or how we know whether or not the K-7 with its features and build should sell better. To my knowledge only Pentax and Hoya have access to such data.

I find it a pity people for some reason perceive the image quality of the K-7 somehow to be inferior in regards to what standards I am not sure to keep people from buying one. At no point owning the K-7 have I said to myself if only I had such and such sensor my images would be better. The K-7 to my eyes produce images with a very film like look with a better sense of space than the more plastic digital smoothed over look of similar cameras. The K-7 is a great camera to work with ergonomically for me there isn't a better camera on the market.

Of course I am all for an improved K-7. Lets hope Photokina brings continued success from Pentax.

I do not have data on Pentax dslr sales volume, but the Pentax dslrs I see being carried about most often are K10d, K20d, and Kx - not K7.

I am not suggesting that the K7 is a bad camera, or that the sensor is lousy. My criticism is that in the cycle of model upgrades, Pentax should have done better with the K7 sensor - especially for the needs of someone primarily interested in tripod mounted landscape photography, where high detail and dynamic range are most important.

Kunzite · 08-21-2010, 12:47 AM

Originally posted by deejjjaaaa

with cameras that have Samsung logo on them... not Pentax, Pentax was supposed to be a jackal tolerated while Samsung will take on real players... That was Samsung line of thinking, they failed w/ dSLRs, now they try w/ EVIL cameras...

This is pointless; if you're ignoring basic facts like "Samsung" logo-ed DSLRs being Pentax cameras and their lack of commitment in the DSLR arena...
Be it your way. Facts can't change your opinion, it seems.

civiletti, maybe the Pentaxians aren't too happy to buy products (e.g. cameras) if they aren't bargain priced?
The K10D was an amazing camera for the price. The K-7, well... it is now.

Vaikis_ · 08-21-2010, 12:55 AM

who is visiting Photokina 2010 today ?

Visit Pentax area

ogl · 08-21-2010, 06:40 AM

D800 - new 16 MP FF camera from Nikon. Аvailable - Early 2011.
Nikon D800 - The best goes to those who wait? - DigitalRev.com

Jyrkira · 08-21-2010, 07:20 AM

Originally posted by Vaikis_

who is visiting Photokina 2010 today ?

Visit Pentax area

Today ?

I am going to visit Photokina 2010, but I think it is in September.

Vaikis_ · 08-21-2010, 07:36 AM

Originally posted by Jyrkira

Today ?

I am going to visit Photokina 2010, but I think it is in September.

ups, I'am one month ahead

Sorry.

deejjjaaaa · 08-21-2010, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

This is pointless; if you're ignoring basic facts like "Samsung" logo-ed DSLRs being Pentax cameras and their lack of commitment in the DSLR arena...

their lack of commitment in the dSLR area happened later down the road when they realized that they can't beat C&N and saw EVIL market - so they just switched their priorities

Originally posted by Kunzite

Facts can't change your opinion, it seems.

neither they can change yours.

Kunzite · 08-21-2010, 12:18 PM

OK, so until then they were fully committed in re-branding Pentax cameras. (I know, that's not the complete story - what was it? The cameras were 90% Pentax and 10% Samsung?)
Show me real facts, and we'll talk. Until then, this discussion is over.

zackspeed · 08-21-2010, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by youky63

When will people understand that there is no APS-H sensor available on the market?!? That is not a question of Pentax want it or not, it is just the fact that they can't.
So Pentax has to use other weapons. APS-C sensors (from Samsung or Sony), maybe some day a FF sensor (from Sony or Kodak), and that's it. But for this Photokina, do not expect more than APS-C bodies. And maybe one of them EVIL (K-r). A kind of hybrid model like the Sony a33 and a55, with the sensor of NEX3/5 cameras.
And the K5 will use the sensor of a55/a580 and Nikon "D95".

Bingo

Never aps-h,it´s only a canon thing.
But K-r is no evil

Best regards

ewalk · 08-21-2010, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by ogl

D800 - new 16 MP FF camera from Nikon. Аvailable - Early 2011.
Nikon D800 - The best goes to those who wait? - DigitalRev.com

There wasn't really anything but totally baseless speculation in that article. I'll believe it when I see it,

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08-20-2010, 05:03 PM	#586
glanglois Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Madison, Wis., USA Posts: 1,506	Originally posted by civiletti Perhaps the answer is in the relative sales volume of the K7 and Kx. A camera with the features and build of the K7 should sell better. Perhaps the sensor contribution to IQ turned buyers away - It did me. Given that thinking, the high-price autos/sound systems/etc. should outsell the more pedestrian models. They don't. There's a reason that the price-conscious crowd are frequently the "mass market". In most consumer products, large unit sales are found at the middle of the price range or (perhaps more likely) more toward the bottom. Look at how many D40s Nikon flogged for USD $449-$500. Costco put pallets of them at the end of the camera aisle. I still read posts in which rather uneducated owners are singing the praises of that camera - usually based on its low price. I don't think Nikon sold as many D300. But yes, I am aware that the D90 is still selling well at USD $900 or so, body only. But I expect that world-wide sales of the D90 are still less than the D3000 and D5000 combined (splitting the lower price market).

08-20-2010, 05:32 PM	#587
glanglois Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Madison, Wis., USA Posts: 1,506	This got entirely off topic. I'm sorry I contributed to the diversion. Yes, I want Pentax to tell us where they're going. I believe that info will help Pentax retain many of its most loyal and energetic customer base. If they stay, that's good for me even if I don't purchase FF in the next year or two. If they bail, I have to rethink about five years of capex. Falk, any news or rumor you can share on that topic now that we're at the 40-page mark??

08-20-2010, 05:46 PM	#588
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871 Original Poster	Originally posted by glanglois Falk, any news or rumor you can share on that topic now that we're at the 40-page mark?? Oh, it's 8 pages in my setup As for new rumors, I think that we have to wait until vacation is over here in Germany. Things should heat up when Photokina preparation enters it's hot phase. Maybe.

08-20-2010, 08:54 PM	#589
loveisageless Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Oakland, California Photos: Albums Posts: 1,250	Just thought I'd share this link I found on our local Craig's List posting: leica.overgaard.dk - Thorsten Overgaard's Leica Sites - Leica Digilux 2 sample photos and tests (as well as Panasonic DMC-LC1) - Page 2 It adds a little color to the debate, so to speak:-)

08-20-2010, 10:33 PM	#590
KungPOW Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Vancouver, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,699	What does an essay about a 6 year old camera have to do with this thread? It has a 2/3" sensor by the way.

08-20-2010, 11:07 PM	#591
civiletti Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Oregon Photos: Albums Posts: 1,435	Originally posted by Rico I don't know how you can compare relative sales volume of the K-7 and Kx as they are totally different target markets at different target prices or how we know whether or not the K-7 with its features and build should sell better. To my knowledge only Pentax and Hoya have access to such data. I find it a pity people for some reason perceive the image quality of the K-7 somehow to be inferior in regards to what standards I am not sure to keep people from buying one. At no point owning the K-7 have I said to myself if only I had such and such sensor my images would be better. The K-7 to my eyes produce images with a very film like look with a better sense of space than the more plastic digital smoothed over look of similar cameras. The K-7 is a great camera to work with ergonomically for me there isn't a better camera on the market. Of course I am all for an improved K-7. Lets hope Photokina brings continued success from Pentax. I do not have data on Pentax dslr sales volume, but the Pentax dslrs I see being carried about most often are K10d, K20d, and Kx - not K7. I am not suggesting that the K7 is a bad camera, or that the sensor is lousy. My criticism is that in the cycle of model upgrades, Pentax should have done better with the K7 sensor - especially for the needs of someone primarily interested in tripod mounted landscape photography, where high detail and dynamic range are most important.

08-21-2010, 12:47 AM	#592
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by deejjjaaaa with cameras that have Samsung logo on them... not Pentax, Pentax was supposed to be a jackal tolerated while Samsung will take on real players... That was Samsung line of thinking, they failed w/ dSLRs, now they try w/ EVIL cameras... This is pointless; if you're ignoring basic facts like "Samsung" logo-ed DSLRs being Pentax cameras and their lack of commitment in the DSLR arena... Be it your way. Facts can't change your opinion, it seems. civiletti, maybe the Pentaxians aren't too happy to buy products (e.g. cameras) if they aren't bargain priced? The K10D was an amazing camera for the price. The K-7, well... it is now.

08-21-2010, 12:55 AM	#593
Vaikis_ Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 213	who is visiting Photokina 2010 today ? Visit Pentax area

08-21-2010, 06:40 AM	#594
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	D800 - new 16 MP FF camera from Nikon. Аvailable - Early 2011. Nikon D800 - The best goes to those who wait? - DigitalRev.com

08-21-2010, 07:20 AM	#595
Jyrkira Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Finland Posts: 215	Originally posted by Vaikis_ who is visiting Photokina 2010 today ? Visit Pentax area Today ? I am going to visit Photokina 2010, but I think it is in September.

08-21-2010, 07:36 AM	#596
Vaikis_ Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 213	Originally posted by Jyrkira Today ? I am going to visit Photokina 2010, but I think it is in September. ups, I'am one month ahead Sorry.

08-21-2010, 09:31 AM	#597
deejjjaaaa Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: steel city / rust belt Posts: 2,043	Originally posted by Kunzite This is pointless; if you're ignoring basic facts like "Samsung" logo-ed DSLRs being Pentax cameras and their lack of commitment in the DSLR arena... their lack of commitment in the dSLR area happened later down the road when they realized that they can't beat C&N and saw EVIL market - so they just switched their priorities Originally posted by Kunzite Facts can't change your opinion, it seems. neither they can change yours.

08-21-2010, 12:18 PM	#598
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	OK, so until then they were fully committed in re-branding Pentax cameras. (I know, that's not the complete story - what was it? The cameras were 90% Pentax and 10% Samsung?) Show me real facts, and we'll talk. Until then, this discussion is over.

08-21-2010, 03:14 PM	#599
zackspeed Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 527	Originally posted by youky63 When will people understand that there is no APS-H sensor available on the market?!? That is not a question of Pentax want it or not, it is just the fact that they can't. So Pentax has to use other weapons. APS-C sensors (from Samsung or Sony), maybe some day a FF sensor (from Sony or Kodak), and that's it. But for this Photokina, do not expect more than APS-C bodies. And maybe one of them EVIL (K-r). A kind of hybrid model like the Sony a33 and a55, with the sensor of NEX3/5 cameras. And the K5 will use the sensor of a55/a580 and Nikon "D95". Bingo Never aps-h,it´s only a canon thing. But K-r is no evil Best regards

08-21-2010, 03:33 PM	#600
ewalk Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 316	Originally posted by ogl D800 - new 16 MP FF camera from Nikon. Аvailable - Early 2011. Nikon D800 - The best goes to those who wait? - DigitalRev.com There wasn't really anything but totally baseless speculation in that article. I'll believe it when I see it,