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08-11-2010, 01:13 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
They'll have to either remove the SR (no need for going mirrorless, then) or to reduce the registration distance (current lenses would work only with an adapter).
My comparison above doesn't require re-hashing registration distance from other threads. The registration distance would be the same. That's the point of a k-mount system. At the end of the day, the biggest argument is "small" with interchangeable lenses. I really don't get this love afair with looking through an EVF and using the LCD as a sole means of composition even less.

Edit: If you go back and look at the NX-10 and K-x comparison, you will see the biggest difference is in the depth. They could get it down to 60mm as in the *istD and keep the mirror plus get the grip thinner.


Last edited by Blue; 08-11-2010 at 01:20 PM.
08-11-2010, 01:20 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Did you even look at the comparison of the NX-10 and K-x and the possibility of size reduction to the K-x?
Yes, it is possible to make K-x 10-20% smaller without mirror and optical viewfinder. But the most important dimension will not change - the distance between sensor and lens mount.

QuoteQuote:
What you just asked me is why by the Samsung NX-10. Exactly! I need a damn adapter. I'm not one of the guys clamoring for EVIL. They could get a K-x type camera down to the *istD size and fill that same niche because in Japan, they already are.
You are not a typical customer for an EVIL camera. Most buyers are coming from a P&S.
Samsung NX with a lens is much smaller than K-x with lens as K-x has much longer register distance. And that will not change on a mirrorless camera with K-mount. Lenses on NX can also be made smaller because of the shorter register distance.

Are you saying that Pentax should custom design a camera for all different type of needs? A camera that fit your needs perfectly, and another camera that fit my needs perfectly and so on... I don't think that would be a very successful business for Pentax.

Pentax need to come up with a mirrorless system that can get the attention of as many buyer as possible for the next 10 years (or however long this system will exist).
08-11-2010, 01:25 PM   #48
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"Based on the *istD, we know they can get the flange to back to 60mm." - but can this be achieved, while keeping the SR?
And what would be the point, to keep the same registration distance but without a mirror? That would be a competitive disadvantage, in terms of compactness and optical design (for wides).
08-11-2010, 01:41 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Yes, it is possible to make K-x 10-20% smaller without mirror and optical viewfinder. But the most important dimension will not change - the distance between sensor and lens mount.
Obviously the RD want change if the k-mount system stays compatible and interchangeable with a future system.

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
You are not a typical customer for an EVIL camera. Most buyers are coming from a P&S.
P&S people can move up to a K-x or stay with a P&S. Only a percentage of them will stay with whatever they choose regardless if its Samsung, Panasonic or Pentax anyway. Most of them will go back to a P&S in 2 or 3 years anyway. Pentax wants me to move on, by god I will. I won't replace my gear because of a bunch of mirror-phobic vampires.

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Samsung NX with a lens is much smaller than K-x with lens as K-x has much longer register distance. And that will not change on a mirrorless camera with K-mount. Lenses on NX can also be made smaller because of the shorter register distance.
The biggest difference is in thickness and part of that is the grip. The NX-10 is 17.6 ounces and the K-x is 20.5 ounces with batteries and card.

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Are you saying that Pentax should custom design a camera for all different type of needs? A camera that fit your needs perfectly, and another camera that fit my needs perfectly and so on... I don't think that would be a very successful business for Pentax.
NO, I am not saying they need multiple systems! I'm saying they will be idiots if they dump the k-mount. Their current core base isn't made up of P&S. They currently have 2 systems as it is. If Pentax wants me to move on, by god I will. I won't replace my gear because of a bunch of mirror-phobic vampires.

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Pentax need to come up with a mirrorless system that can get the attention of as many buyer as possible for the next 10 years (or however long this system will exist).
Why does it have to be mirrorless system? The K-x got a lot of attention in Japan. Its hard to get attention in the U.S. when your 3 main sellers are BH, Adorama and Amazon.

08-11-2010, 01:43 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
I would think that there will still be a market to the DA LTD's. the entry level mirrorless APS-C ($500) and the mirrorless midrange APS-C($1,200) will accommodate those lenses. as many had speculated that mirrorless FF could cost at around $1,800-$2000 (could be pushed further to $2300). so it all comes down to pricing category.

I could only assume that if Pentax sells a mirrorless FF for $1,800, I would expect a price hike with FF lenses inorder for the mirrorless APS-C and APS-C lenses become a cheap and attractive alternative as to getting a FF. the market for APS-C would be the general enthusiasts/hobbyist or budget constraint/conscious consumer. while the market for the mirrorless FF would be a few hobbyist, a huge number of amateurs or advanced amateurs, semi/pro photographers.

if people are anticipating such event and Pentax does indeed a FF this year or early next year, I would advise them to horde those FF lenses while they're still cheap.
An $1800 mirrorless FF? Who is going to buy it? Hysterical I may have to move to Leica.
08-11-2010, 01:48 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
"Based on the *istD, we know they can get the flange to back to 60mm." - but can this be achieved, while keeping the SR?
And what would be the point, to keep the same registration distance but without a mirror? That would be a competitive disadvantage, in terms of compactness and optical design (for wides).
Good point. The DA 21 and 15 ltd is such a P.O.S. . . . and that old FA 31 is a paper weight and the 43 hardly worth mentioning. However, these aren't likely the lenses the disposable crowd will be looking for anyway. BTW, the IS is in the lens on the NX.

Edit: It turns out that there are 2 versions of the 18-55 Samsung lens. 1 with OIS and one without. Apparently the only other lens that has OIS is the Samsung 50-200mm. The 20-50mm zoom and the 4 prime lenses apparently don't have OIS.

sarcasm

Last edited by Blue; 08-11-2010 at 02:43 PM.
08-11-2010, 02:03 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
The biggest difference is in thickness and part of that is the grip. The NX-10 is 17.6 ounces and the K-x is 20.5 ounces with batteries and card.
The biggest difference in thickness is when a lens is mounted on the cameras. A camera without lens is not of much use.

QuoteQuote:
NO, I am not saying they need multiple systems! I'm saying they will be idiots if they dump the k-mount. Their current core base isn't made up of P&S. They currently have 2 systems as it is. If Pentax wants me to move on, by god I will. I won't replace my gear because of a bunch of mirror-phobic vampires.
Of course they should not dump K-mount. Mirrorless system will be an alternative that will co-exist with DSLR.
Why should you replace your gear if Pentax release a mirrorless camera that you are not interested in?

QuoteQuote:
Why does it have to be mirrorless system? The K-x got a lot of attention in Japan. Its hard to get attention in the U.S. when your 3 main sellers are BH, Adorama and Amazon.
It has to be mirrorless because otherwise it can not be made as small, and also because video works better on a mirrorless system optimized for video.
As long as Pentax makes money on selling DSLR there are no need to stop maufaturing them.
But I think that the glorydays of (D)SLR is (soon) of the past, and in the future smaller interchangeable lens cameras with steal a big part of DSLR market share.
08-11-2010, 02:23 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
The biggest difference in thickness is when a lens is mounted on the cameras. A camera without lens is not of much use.
NX-10 with 18-55mm zoom that still has to cover APS-C sensor (28.4mm diagonal):



QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Of course they should not dump K-mount. Mirrorless system will be an alternative that will co-exist with DSLR.
Why should you replace your gear if Pentax release a mirrorless camera that you are not interested in?
That was in reference to a single system and the K-mount becomes dead end. I wouldn't be buying any future bodies if the mount were dropped.

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
It has to be mirrorless because otherwise it can not be made as small, and also because video works better on a mirrorless system optimized for video.
The size of the APS-C sensor is the limiting factor in the size of the lenses and to some degree the body. If I want a video camera, I'll get one optimized for it. I'm more interested in macro and closeup capabilities.

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
As long as Pentax makes money on selling DSLR there are no need to stop maufaturing them.
But I think that the glorydays of (D)SLR is (soon) of the past, and in the future smaller interchangeable lens cameras with steal a big part of DSLR market share.
Actually, the problem is that people that use EVF or only an LCD have no clue has crappy they are for many applications which defeat the whole purpose of an interchangeable lens system.

That still doesn't answer the question has to why the group of people that has mirror-phobia. What's next, a FF mirrorless? Oh wait, that's Leica.

08-11-2010, 02:44 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
An $1800 mirrorless FF? Who is going to buy it? :Hysterical: I may have to move to Leica.
what's funny? if you think people are mad for getting one for $1,800, then you can say that people that have bought a much expensive APS-H system to be a lot madder as well.

anyway, you dont seem to get the point. the point here is to set up a price category that will not cannibalize the market of a midrange APS-C market. if Pentax will set a price lower than $1500 and which I think is possible, the APS-C midrange camera that they would release at the price category would be affected in certain way.

Last edited by Pentaxor; 08-11-2010 at 02:55 PM.
08-11-2010, 03:21 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
NX-10 with 18-55mm zoom that still has to cover APS-C sensor (28.4mm diagonal):
That is still smaller than K-x with kitlens, and Samsung also has two smaller kitlenses.

QuoteQuote:
The size of the APS-C sensor is the limiting factor in the size of the lenses and to some degree the body. If I want a video camera, I'll get one optimized for it. I'm more interested in macro and closeup capabilities.
Register distance is also a limiting factor. If lenses do not need retrofocus design they can be made smaller. Just look at Samsung 30/2 pancake, it is as small as Pentax 40/2.8. But wider and faster, and would not be possible to design as small for a DSLR. As I said before you (and me) are not typical buyers of mirrorless cameras, and me myself do not care much for video.
But most users want convenience of a small multi-purpose camera.

QuoteQuote:
Actually, the problem is that people that use EVF or only an LCD have no clue has crappy they are for many applications which defeat the whole purpose of an interchangeable lens system.
EVF is good enough in most cases for most users, and a camera that is small enough for you to bring will always be better than a bigger camera that you left at home. There is a reason why mobile phones are one the most used cameras.
08-11-2010, 03:24 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
what's funny? if you think people are mad for getting one for $1,800, then you can say that people that have bought a much expensive APS-H system to be a lot madder as well.

anyway, you dont seem to get the point. the point here is to set up a price category that will not cannibalize the market of a midrange APS-C market. if Pentax will set a price lower than $1500 and which I think is possible, the APS-C midrange camera that they would release at the price category would be affected in certain way.
I didn't realize Canon's APS-H camera was mirrorless.
08-11-2010, 03:36 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
That is still smaller than K-x with kitlens, and Samsung also has two smaller kitlenses.

Register distance is also a limiting factor. If lenses do not need retrofocus design they can be made smaller. Just look at Samsung 30/2 pancake, it is as small as Pentax 40/2.8. But wider and faster, and would not be possible to design as small for a DSLR. As I said before you (and me) are not typical buyers of mirrorless cameras, and me myself do not care much for video.
But most users want convenience of a small multi-purpose camera.

EVF is good enough in most cases for most users, and a camera that is small enough for you to bring will always be better than a bigger camera that you left at home. There is a reason why mobile phones are one the most used cameras.
With the current packages at BH.

1. NX body + 18-55mm OIS $599 after rebate
2. NX Body + 18-55mm + 30mm $999 shipped
3. NX Body + 18-55 + 50-200mm OIS $948.99 (200 rebate may be available)

Package number 3 is sold out which is surprising. I figured it would be number 2. I don't see this package 3 as a significant advantage as a travel kit over the K-x. 3 ounces isn't saving much.



However, this is available special order for $199. Shazam!



There's also this method :

Remodeling MF lens to AF lens with Samsung NX10 -Lens Remodelng part 1- SamsungImaging – Samsung Cameras & Camcorder Blog
08-11-2010, 03:45 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I didn't realize Canon's APS-H camera was mirrorless.


anyway, goodluck with Leica. I'm sure it ain't mirrorless as well and not even worth $1,800.
08-11-2010, 04:07 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote


anyway, goodluck with Leica. I'm sure it ain't mirrorless as well and not even worth $1,800.
Its a rangefinder. Its already 1920s technology. At least its full frame. Unfortunately, $1800 is just a down payment on the M9.
08-11-2010, 04:09 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
With the current packages at BH.

1. NX body + 18-55mm OIS $599 after rebate
2. NX Body + 18-55mm + 30mm $999 shipped
3. NX Body + 18-55 + 50-200mm OIS $948.99 (200 rebate may be available)

Package number 3 is sold out which is surprising. I figured it would be number 2. I don't see this package 3 as a significant advantage as a travel kit over the K-x. 3 ounces isn't saving much.
Not me either, the advantage I see with mirrorless cameras is when using smaller bodies combined with pancake lenses.
Like Panasonic GF1 with 20/1.7 pancake.

I don't think NX10 is very popular among mirrorless cameras right now, Panasonic/Olympus and Sony do much better as they have smaller cameras.
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