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08-11-2010, 05:04 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
But I think that the glorydays of (D)SLR is (soon) of the past, and in the future smaller interchangeable lens cameras with steal a big part of DSLR market share.
Why? We have had mirrorless cameras as long as cameras have existed. They have never been stealing a lot from SLR's.

08-11-2010, 05:09 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
EVF is good enough in most cases for most users, and a camera that is small enough for you to bring will always be better than a bigger camera that you left at home. There is a reason why mobile phones are one the most used cameras.
Thats right! And so are P&S; it is in fact P&S users who buys EVIL's. They will soon discover that they don't need interchangeable lenses; that a zoom will do. Then they will experience that they don't need WYSIGWYG finders and that the EVIL camera with lenses is far to big and bulky for their needs. Then they will go back to P&S or cell phone...

DSLR's will still be the choice for those who want "real" camera.

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 08-11-2010 at 05:16 PM.
08-11-2010, 05:57 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote


Its a rangefinder. Its already 1920s technology. At least its full frame. Unfortunately, $1800 is just a down payment on the M9.

I know it's a rangefinder and mostly film-based except for the M9 which is digital, but it's still a FF. and as you said, you still can't have it for $1,800. so it doesn't even make sense for someone who is budget-conscious. since you put cost into consideration, a Leica doesn't even make sense, regardless whatever technology you are saying it is. $6,000? No Thanks !
08-11-2010, 08:38 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Thats right! And so are P&S; it is in fact P&S users who buys EVIL's. They will soon discover that they don't need interchangeable lenses; that a zoom will do. Then they will experience that they don't need WYSIGWYG finders and that the EVIL camera with lenses is far to big and bulky for their needs. Then they will go back to P&S or cell phone...

DSLR's will still be the choice for those who want "real" camera.

This is not the case for all EVIL camera users.

They are the ideal platform for good, older MF lenses.
Try to mount a top notch Canon FD 300mm F4 L on any other digital camera......
Or a Konica 50mm F1.7
Or a Minolta Rokkor MD 85mm F2
(without modification)

08-11-2010, 08:43 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
This is not the case for all EVIL camera users.

They are the ideal platform for good, older MF lenses.
Try to mount a top notch Canon FD 300mm F4 L on any other digital camera......
Or a Konica 50mm F1.7
Or a Minolta Rokkor MD 85mm F2
(without modification)
It is a matter of time before someone starts cranking out adapters for the NX-10 since its aps-c. Samsung already rolled out the above linked adapter for k-mount. Its too bad its $199.
08-11-2010, 09:10 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
This is not the case for all EVIL camera users.

They are the ideal platform for good, older MF lenses.
Try to mount a top notch Canon FD 300mm F4 L on any other digital camera......
Or a Konica 50mm F1.7
Or a Minolta Rokkor MD 85mm F2
(without modification)

For example, here's a bit of reach!!!!! Tokina AT-X 100-300mm F4



Has a field of view equivalent to 600mm, and only cost me the equivalent of $40 !!!!!!
Does that look like the combo of a P&S user or an enthusiast??
08-12-2010, 12:19 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Why? We have had mirrorless cameras as long as cameras have existed. They have never been stealing a lot from SLR's.
QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Thats right! And so are P&S; it is in fact P&S users who buys EVIL's. They will soon discover that they don't need interchangeable lenses; that a zoom will do. Then they will experience that they don't need WYSIGWYG finders and that the EVIL camera with lenses is far to big and bulky for their needs. Then they will go back to P&S or cell phone...

DSLR's will still be the choice for those who want "real" camera.
Because digital P&S users that wanted better image quality had DSLR as only choice before, but most of them would prefer a smaller camera and will get an EVIL camera in the future.
In the future there might also be more non interchangeable lens cameras with big sensors that might be an alternative for them.
But less will choose DSLR as there are other alternatives.
08-12-2010, 12:22 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
(...)

Does that look like the combo of a P&S user or an enthusiast??
Dear sweet Jesus! That question, along with the picture, made my mind explode.

08-12-2010, 02:39 AM   #69
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Warning,this is purely personal thinking, not talking general market but strictly for me:

Frankly I am sceptical about mirrorless cameras. With stupidly small sensor, it would be useless. It should be 4/3 minimum, APS would be better but then the problem is compactness (or lack of it). Looking at Samsung/Sony, the cameras look idiot if not ridiculous with a simple 18-55 on them. It is a standard zoom, nothing fancy and not pocketable anymore. And for me it needs to be pocketable to make sense.

A 4/3 sensor allowing more compact lenses like Oly/Pana may be better (for compactness sake) but of course worse for quality. As the difference is not so big between 4/3 and APS, maybe it isn't such a big deal? I dunno

What I now (again, for me) is that EP1/ GF1 etc. are big to me compared to what is the max possible (I'm targetting pocketability) being my LX3 (with stand zoom, I can compromise by not having a f/2-2.8 from the LX3).
For me, pancake are nice but a cool thing which would make a MILC even smaller, but that thing should be pocketable with a standard zoom.

Just my two cents... Comments ?
08-12-2010, 04:40 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Because digital P&S users that wanted better image quality had DSLR as only choice before, but most of them would prefer a smaller camera and will get an EVIL camera in the future.
In the future there might also be more non interchangeable lens cameras with big sensors that might be an alternative for them.
But less will choose DSLR as there are other alternatives.
Not only that, but mirrorless will *eventually*have features superior to a mirror even for pros, like superior AF, focus point selection, etc. along with savings in weight. If you lose mass in one place, you can more cost-effectively add features in others,like weather-proofing, as Pentax has done with the Optio W series: small, dense, durable.

The question in design is whether the EVF tech can replace OVF. For the latter, retaining it may mean either a true RF, or a simple framing mechanism like 35mm P&S.

Me wonders if Canon is working on some hybrid, a small, retained mirror to preserve the OVF, and in doing so retain backwards lens compatibility.

The other option for Pentax is to release a new micro k-mount exclusive to mirrorless, like the Auto 110, with adapters for DA and FA glass.

One HUGE advantage of a new mount with retro usability is the possibility that it will encourage prosumers to own multiple bodies and lenses.
08-12-2010, 04:53 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
For example, here's a bit of reach!!!!! Tokina AT-X 100-300mm F4

Has a field of view equivalent to 600mm, and only cost me the equivalent of $40 !!!!!!
Does that look like the combo of a P&S user or an enthusiast??

QuoteOriginally posted by SMPhoto Quote
Dear sweet Jesus! That question, along with the picture, made my mind explode.


That particular lens has a Canon FD mount. It will not fit any DSLR.

The reduced registration distance allows it to be fitted to the Panasonic G series and Olympus micro 4/3 cameras. The reason the lens was only $40 was because it was a Canon FD mount.

I also have a beautiful Canon FD 50mm F1.4 SSC lens..... fantastic contrast and sharpness.
08-12-2010, 03:37 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Because digital P&S users that wanted better image quality had DSLR as only choice before, but most of them would prefer a smaller camera and will get an EVIL camera in the future.
.
Alternative for what? What you get is a camera without a decent viewfinder. The lenses are just as big and doesn't help that the camera is pocketable but not the lenses.
The market for pancake lenses is minuscule; in fact only a few percentages of all lenses sold are primes. People want zoom lenses with some range. They are going to be rather large.
Another point is that DSLR sells because they are (relatively) large. Most people who buy them don't need a DSLR but use it as a gloirified P&S. The DSLR is the camera of choice bacuse that is what a "real" camera is supposed to be like as opposed to a tool designed for P&S. DSLR have their existence due to their viewfinders. This explains why DSLR's increase sales in spite of the launch of EVIL's.
08-12-2010, 04:13 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Another point is that DSLR sells because they are (relatively) large. Most people who buy them don't need a DSLR but use it as a gloirified P&S. The DSLR is the camera of choice bacuse that is what a "real" camera is supposed to be like as opposed to a tool designed for P&S. DSLR have their existence due to their viewfinders. This explains why DSLR's increase sales in spite of the launch of EVIL's.
I don't think this is the case, it is just that many P&S users still believe that for better image quality the camera has to be big, black and ugly.
They just have not yet discovered that there are other alternatives that probably would fit them better.

It pmight takes until Canon and Nikon enter the market before a big wave of EVIL will drown the DSLR market.
But there are a good reasons why they wait with releasing EVIL. They feel safer with the market they have in DSLR, and the EVIL market they might not have the same control over and probably not be as big players. They have much to loose entering EVIL market, but not so much to win right now, so they will wait as long as possible.
08-12-2010, 04:45 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
I don't think this is the case, it is just that many P&S users still believe that for better image quality the camera has to be big, black and ugly.
They just have not yet discovered that there are other alternatives that probably would fit them better.
Like big, orange and gaudy? Hysterical

08-12-2010, 04:54 PM   #75
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