Pentax's Reply to my inquiry about a Mirrorless Camera

SMPhoto · 08-10-2010, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

SMPhoto, are you sure the Citigroup report is accurate? I find it strange that Pentax would announce their future EVIL plans only to them (while nothing is publicly known about cameras which will be released next month).
Plenty of EVILs? There is m4/3, of course. Then, Samsung - I doubt Pentax would join them. And NEX. Sony's NEX. "Everything proprietary&as closed as it gets" Sony's NEX. Not that many systems, actually - though, I fail to see why Pentax would join any of them (abandoning us).
What Pentax is working on? We'll see next year... but I'll remind you that Pentax is the inventor of the Japanese SLR

IMO, any K-mount, 645 or even 67 DSLR would fit better than those mirrorless thingies.

Aristophanes: "The statement neither confirms nor denies." - IMO this is the logical conclusion. And the only thing Pentax can do, right now.
They can't replicate the m4/3's success; too late for that (not sure if they had resources for such a bold move, anyway). IMO for now they can stay with the still dominant DSLRs, growing their market share, their brand recognition - and of course carefully observing the market, being ready to make this step when necessary.

Rangefinders, unfortunately, are a thing of the past (while they didn't completely disappeared). A true rangefinder is a complex mechanical device which requires the utmost precise alignment for it's various components.
Unlike them, the mirrorless which uses the main sensor for composing/focusing (manual or with contrast detection AF) require just a loose alignment, less than a SLR. Please, do not insult the rangefinders by such comparisons.

How can any of us be certain the report is accurate? I sure don't work for Citigroup.

New mirrorless patents are coming out every day. The majority of them remain unused. The truth is, none of us will know until Photokina. We should just accept that fact and move on.

Also, nobody's insulting Rangefinders here. I know what wonderful, precise instruments they are: I own a Leica III that I love very much. However, to say that they are a thing of the past and will be forgotten.. I think not. MF wasn't forgotten in the digital age, and all you have to do is look at Leica's website to know Rangefinders haven't been either.

Please don't shoot the messenger.. All I want is a WR K-x with a battery grip..

Kunzite · 08-10-2010, 02:42 PM

The thing is, I don't put any weight behind this Citigroup/EVIL thing. YMMV, but unless new data emerges, IMO it's just speculation (as with Hoya selling Pentax).

Yet I doubt we'll see an EVIL at Photokina.

I forgot to put a smiley there... of course, nobody's insulting rangefinders; it was just a tongue in cheek reminder of how different they are - from mere EVILs.
I should also clarify; I never said they will be completely forgotten. Utmost precision is, though, a thing of the past (in photography); we can get by software calibration, simplifying the hardware (e.g. contrast detection AF) and so on. Rangefinders will still have their small niche (Leica, anyone?), like vinyl disks.
At least, that's what I hope. It would be a terrible day, when Leica would decide to put an EVF in their next M-series camera.

SMPhoto · 08-10-2010, 02:52 PM

I don't really think the stockholders of Citigroup would be very happy with speculation. But you never know. Pentax didn't deny Citigroup's claims.. but they also didn't endorse them.

I totally agree that a EVIL and a Rangefinder are different animals all together, however, I asked Pentax about a "mirrorless" camera. Which really does cover a much broader area of photography than if I had asked about, say, a Pentax NEX system.

Leica isn't one to change.. They hold up their area of the photography business, and do it well.

Pablom · 08-10-2010, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by SMPhoto

I would guess something like that.

considering Pentax never made a rangefinder, I'd say it is not their style

Kunzite · 08-10-2010, 02:57 PM

Well, if analysts would only write facts, we'd all be rich

I doubt Pentax would make a rangefinder; as I've said it's a very limited niche, and it requires special lenses - too much of an investment. Epson failed; Pentax won't do the same.
Well, Leica entered the DMF market... but I'd also expect them to hold on their M system as long as they can. And I wish them good luck.

SMPhoto · 08-10-2010, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Pablom

considering Pentax never made a rangefinder, I'd say it is not their style

You could also say that since they've never made a mirrorless camera before it's not their style.
I'm just speculating. Like we all are.

At least the email helps a little.

SMPhoto · 08-10-2010, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Well, if analysts would only write facts, we'd all be rich

How true

**Aristophanes** · 08-10-2010, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by SMPhoto

Yup. I guessed that's pretty much what it meant, and Canikon haven't invested in any EVILs yet, so..

Oh, yes they have. They're just not on the market yet. Next few weeks we'll see.

**Aristophanes** · 08-10-2010, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by Pablom

considering Pentax never made a rangefinder, I'd say it is not their style

Ironically, the DA Ltd's would be ideal lenses for an APS-C digital rangefinder system.

"Poor man's Leica", indeed!

Blue · 08-10-2010, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

Oh, yes they have. They're just not on the market yet. Next few weeks we'll see.

There you go taking that interview out of context again.

That's not what Maeda said.

**Aristophanes** · 08-10-2010, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by Blue

There you go taking that interview out of context again.

That's not what Maeda said.

I don't care what Maeda said. As a Canon shareholder I expect Canon, with all its resources, to have many irons in the fire.

Canon has invested in mirrorless development. How far that will go....?

Blue · 08-10-2010, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

I don't care what Maeda said. As a Canon shareholder I expect Canon, with all its resources, to have many irons in the fire.

Canon has invested in mirrorless development. How far that will go....?

They already have a mirrorless camera! Its called the G11. All they have to do is screw the lens off and call it good.

**Aristophanes** · 08-10-2010, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by SMPhoto

I totally agree that a EVIL and a Rangefinder are different animals all together, however, I asked Pentax about a "mirrorless" camera. Which really does cover a much broader area of photography than if I had asked about, say, a Pentax NEX system.

Mirrorless and RF are closely aligned, more than either is related to a DSLR. The P&S digital lineage is closer to a DSLR.EVIL is the hybrid, but depends on the successful marriage of a P&S to an ocular-enhanced VF.

The critical difference for Pentax is:

1) Is EVF tech up to snuff? With low-light being a mantra amongst Pentaxians the current EVF's are not up to the task. I've used the Oly's and no, they are not. They struggle with contrast and are dogs in low-light.

2) How does one incorporate an OVF if the EVF is not an option? Create a digital RF that can use the DA Ltd's but not telecentric zooms? There might be a market for that. The current EVILs like the NEX look kind of silly with their beercan zooms. The whole format looks better with primes, are more pocketable, and might perform better with primes, especially in low light.

That meets the "unique and distinctive" quality.

Without either the only viewfinder option is a rear LCD. The design hiccup is not the mirror, it's the VF.

**Aristophanes** · 08-10-2010, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by Blue

They already have a mirrorless camera! Its called the G11. All they have to do is screw the lens off and call it good.

+1. Good call. They're 90% there already, sensor size depending. That's its failing.

Kunzite · 08-11-2010, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

Ironically, the DA Ltd's would be ideal lenses for an APS-C digital rangefinder system.

Nope, not the DA Ltds. Well, they would take the DA 70's optics and put it in a completely different barrel (with all the thingies that would link to the rangefinder mechanisms). We can forgive an apparent increase in length.
A bigger version of the DA 40 f/2.8, I'm not sure if it would make sense. Why not a faster, dedicated lens? Or like they did in the past, reuse the FA 43mm?
Then, the DA 35mm macro. Yep, macro - biiig problem for a rangefinder. And thus, a big no-no.
Last, the 21mm - it won't be a pancake anymore, it's not that good optically and not so fast, either. Why? A non-retrofocus design would be a much better idea.

We'll see how the EVFs will evolve. So far, I wasn't impressed; I'd chose a big, high quality reflex viewfinder anytime. Of course, both choices should exist; but not necessarily from Pentax

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08-10-2010, 02:28 PM	#16
SMPhoto Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Phoenix, AZ Photos: Gallery Posts: 185 Original Poster	Originally posted by Kunzite SMPhoto, are you sure the Citigroup report is accurate? I find it strange that Pentax would announce their future EVIL plans only to them (while nothing is publicly known about cameras which will be released next month). Plenty of EVILs? There is m4/3, of course. Then, Samsung - I doubt Pentax would join them. And NEX. Sony's NEX. "Everything proprietary&as closed as it gets" Sony's NEX. Not that many systems, actually - though, I fail to see why Pentax would join any of them (abandoning us). What Pentax is working on? We'll see next year... but I'll remind you that Pentax is the inventor of the Japanese SLR IMO, any K-mount, 645 or even 67 DSLR would fit better than those mirrorless thingies. Aristophanes: "The statement neither confirms nor denies." - IMO this is the logical conclusion. And the only thing Pentax can do, right now. They can't replicate the m4/3's success; too late for that (not sure if they had resources for such a bold move, anyway). IMO for now they can stay with the still dominant DSLRs, growing their market share, their brand recognition - and of course carefully observing the market, being ready to make this step when necessary. Rangefinders, unfortunately, are a thing of the past (while they didn't completely disappeared). A true rangefinder is a complex mechanical device which requires the utmost precise alignment for it's various components. Unlike them, the mirrorless which uses the main sensor for composing/focusing (manual or with contrast detection AF) require just a loose alignment, less than a SLR. Please, do not insult the rangefinders by such comparisons. How can any of us be certain the report is accurate? I sure don't work for Citigroup. New mirrorless patents are coming out every day. The majority of them remain unused. The truth is, none of us will know until Photokina. We should just accept that fact and move on. Also, nobody's insulting Rangefinders here. I know what wonderful, precise instruments they are: I own a Leica III that I love very much. However, to say that they are a thing of the past and will be forgotten.. I think not. MF wasn't forgotten in the digital age, and all you have to do is look at Leica's website to know Rangefinders haven't been either. Please don't shoot the messenger.. All I want is a WR K-x with a battery grip..

08-10-2010, 02:42 PM	#17
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	The thing is, I don't put any weight behind this Citigroup/EVIL thing. YMMV, but unless new data emerges, IMO it's just speculation (as with Hoya selling Pentax). Yet I doubt we'll see an EVIL at Photokina. I forgot to put a smiley there... of course, nobody's insulting rangefinders; it was just a tongue in cheek reminder of how different they are - from mere EVILs. I should also clarify; I never said they will be completely forgotten. Utmost precision is, though, a thing of the past (in photography); we can get by software calibration, simplifying the hardware (e.g. contrast detection AF) and so on. Rangefinders will still have their small niche (Leica, anyone?), like vinyl disks. At least, that's what I hope. It would be a terrible day, when Leica would decide to put an EVF in their next M-series camera.

08-10-2010, 02:52 PM	#18
SMPhoto Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Phoenix, AZ Photos: Gallery Posts: 185 Original Poster	I don't really think the stockholders of Citigroup would be very happy with speculation. But you never know. Pentax didn't deny Citigroup's claims.. but they also didn't endorse them. I totally agree that a EVIL and a Rangefinder are different animals all together, however, I asked Pentax about a "mirrorless" camera. Which really does cover a much broader area of photography than if I had asked about, say, a Pentax NEX system. Leica isn't one to change.. They hold up their area of the photography business, and do it well.

08-10-2010, 02:54 PM	#19
Pablom Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Usa Posts: 1,940	Originally posted by SMPhoto I would guess something like that. considering Pentax never made a rangefinder, I'd say it is not their style

08-10-2010, 02:57 PM	#20
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Well, if analysts would only write facts, we'd all be rich I doubt Pentax would make a rangefinder; as I've said it's a very limited niche, and it requires special lenses - too much of an investment. Epson failed; Pentax won't do the same. Well, Leica entered the DMF market... but I'd also expect them to hold on their M system as long as they can. And I wish them good luck.

08-10-2010, 02:58 PM	#21
SMPhoto Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Phoenix, AZ Photos: Gallery Posts: 185 Original Poster	Originally posted by Pablom considering Pentax never made a rangefinder, I'd say it is not their style You could also say that since they've never made a mirrorless camera before it's not their style. I'm just speculating. Like we all are. At least the email helps a little.

08-10-2010, 03:00 PM	#22
SMPhoto Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Phoenix, AZ Photos: Gallery Posts: 185 Original Poster	Originally posted by Kunzite Well, if analysts would only write facts, we'd all be rich How true

08-10-2010, 03:33 PM	#23
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by SMPhoto Yup. I guessed that's pretty much what it meant, and Canikon haven't invested in any EVILs yet, so.. Oh, yes they have. They're just not on the market yet. Next few weeks we'll see.

08-10-2010, 03:35 PM	#24
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by Pablom considering Pentax never made a rangefinder, I'd say it is not their style Ironically, the DA Ltd's would be ideal lenses for an APS-C digital rangefinder system. "Poor man's Leica", indeed!

08-10-2010, 03:59 PM	#25
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by Aristophanes Oh, yes they have. They're just not on the market yet. Next few weeks we'll see. There you go taking that interview out of context again. That's not what Maeda said.

08-10-2010, 04:57 PM	#26
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by Blue There you go taking that interview out of context again. That's not what Maeda said. I don't care what Maeda said. As a Canon shareholder I expect Canon, with all its resources, to have many irons in the fire. Canon has invested in mirrorless development. How far that will go....?

08-10-2010, 05:23 PM	#27
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by Aristophanes I don't care what Maeda said. As a Canon shareholder I expect Canon, with all its resources, to have many irons in the fire. Canon has invested in mirrorless development. How far that will go....? They already have a mirrorless camera! Its called the G11. All they have to do is screw the lens off and call it good.

08-10-2010, 06:03 PM	#28
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by SMPhoto I totally agree that a EVIL and a Rangefinder are different animals all together, however, I asked Pentax about a "mirrorless" camera. Which really does cover a much broader area of photography than if I had asked about, say, a Pentax NEX system. Mirrorless and RF are closely aligned, more than either is related to a DSLR. The P&S digital lineage is closer to a DSLR.EVIL is the hybrid, but depends on the successful marriage of a P&S to an ocular-enhanced VF. The critical difference for Pentax is: 1) Is EVF tech up to snuff? With low-light being a mantra amongst Pentaxians the current EVF's are not up to the task. I've used the Oly's and no, they are not. They struggle with contrast and are dogs in low-light. 2) How does one incorporate an OVF if the EVF is not an option? Create a digital RF that can use the DA Ltd's but not telecentric zooms? There might be a market for that. The current EVILs like the NEX look kind of silly with their beercan zooms. The whole format looks better with primes, are more pocketable, and might perform better with primes, especially in low light. That meets the "unique and distinctive" quality. Without either the only viewfinder option is a rear LCD. The design hiccup is not the mirror, it's the VF.

08-10-2010, 06:07 PM	#29
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by Blue They already have a mirrorless camera! Its called the G11. All they have to do is screw the lens off and call it good. +1. Good call. They're 90% there already, sensor size depending. That's its failing.

08-11-2010, 12:19 AM	#30
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by Aristophanes Ironically, the DA Ltd's would be ideal lenses for an APS-C digital rangefinder system. Nope, not the DA Ltds. Well, they would take the DA 70's optics and put it in a completely different barrel (with all the thingies that would link to the rangefinder mechanisms). We can forgive an apparent increase in length. A bigger version of the DA 40 f/2.8, I'm not sure if it would make sense. Why not a faster, dedicated lens? Or like they did in the past, reuse the FA 43mm? Then, the DA 35mm macro. Yep, macro - biiig problem for a rangefinder. And thus, a big no-no. Last, the 21mm - it won't be a pancake anymore, it's not that good optically and not so fast, either. Why? A non-retrofocus design would be a much better idea. We'll see how the EVFs will evolve. So far, I wasn't impressed; I'd chose a big, high quality reflex viewfinder anytime. Of course, both choices should exist; but not necessarily from Pentax