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08-17-2010, 07:47 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
EVF's have issues with highlights and shadows. Every one I have used is near useless in low light including the G2 and GH1 and PEN's I have tried. This is not a problem with an OVF, so inventing something that works less well to replace something that works accurately is commonly called a kludge.

That's not the way it works in reality.

Near useless in low light?? When the light is VERY low, the view through an OVF is almost black. Not the case with an EVF.

QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
And here's the proof....

This is a very low light situation, as you can see. If you were using an OVF, this is about what you would see, which is not much, because it's almost black. However, notice how much brighter the image is on the LCD? See the coat stand just to the right of center? You can see it on the EVF, but you can't see it at all without it. This demonstrates that the EVF/LCD produces a much brighter REFERENCE for framing and focusing(for example manual focusing), than an OVF with the same lighting conditions.



Now I'm NOT saying that the EVF is superior to an OVF in normal light, but it's still pretty good. But in LOW light, it produces a grainy but brighter image than an OVF. So the " LCD/EVF is bad in low light" story told by people who have never used a micro 4/3 camera in low light is total nonsense.....


08-17-2010, 10:07 PM   #47
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I don't know what camera that is, but with my K-x in LiveView and +7 brightness, there isn't much difference between low light detail until your eyes adjust, where the OVF has an advantage (esp. with pentaprism), at least for tracking objects (not actually manual focusing).

The problem is the K-x only does 1600 ISO in hardware, so that's probably what LiveView goes up to. I even went up to 204800 ISO, but some people claim to see better in the dark when adjusting. I had a discussion with such a fellow here:

From an SLR lover: one EVIL lust [Page 3]: Open Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
08-19-2010, 09:06 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
OVF's are in a sad state indeed when you can pick up a 30 year old $40 Pentax ME Super off of eBay and have a better prism then anything available in the digital world.
so 645D is beyond digital world ?
08-20-2010, 01:48 AM   #49
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Sincerely i'm not interested on all-one zoom.
While about Evil camera i think have sense only with pancake prime.

08-20-2010, 12:38 PM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
so 645D is beyond digital world ?
It's not beyond the digital world, but it is beyond the class of cameras we are talking about in this thread. A $10k medium format camera is hardly justifiable or even attainable for 99.9% of us. On top of that, it's not even an option for those of us in the USA yet.

I was clearly talking about the 35mm/every day camera market when I made a comment about the sorry state of OVF's in the digital world. The bottom line is in the mid-80's the average Joe could buy a 35mm SLR for a few hundred dollars with OVF's much larger than what is currently offered. For those of us that still shoot film that fact is not easily lost. If you want to develop a hatred for your DSLR real quick take it on a photo walk along with an Olympus OM-1 and switch back in fourth between the two throughout the day. Last time I did that I refused to switch back to the Canon 50D I had at the time. It went up for sale on eBay the next day. And it's not just the 50D. I've extensively used a Nikon D700/K10D/K20D/K100D/Sony A200/K7 as well as tested out virtually every DSLR on the market the last few years and none of them come close to the humble Pentax ME Super.

Until they fix this current issue with OVF's then EVF's are just fine by me. At least with them you don't have a direct comparison of what an OVF should look like; so it's less jarring switching back and fourth. Besides, EVF DOF preview is obviously wonderful, anyone that can't admit to that massive advantage for EVF's is clearly bias.

Last edited by Art Vandelay II; 08-20-2010 at 12:44 PM.
08-20-2010, 02:01 PM   #51
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Until I saw the Pentax ME OVF, I couldn't understand, why composition in viewfinder looked ok, but when I saw it in on the LCD screen, it was horrible.
It turned out K100D viewfinder is painfully small. I just can't see all the objects that are there. Does it cost a lot to make a proper pentaprism or something?
08-20-2010, 06:54 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tranzistors Quote
Until I saw the Pentax ME OVF, I couldn't understand, why composition in viewfinder looked ok, but when I saw it in on the LCD screen, it was horrible.
It turned out K100D viewfinder is painfully small. I just can't see all the objects that are there. Does it cost a lot to make a proper pentaprism or something?
The optical viewfinder in Pentax DSLRs is a "proper pentaprism". It is, however sized to the size of the sensor by necessity.
The real driving reason for wanting a 135 format DSLR is to get a 135 format viewfinder.
While EVFs can be made pretty much any size desired, they have some huge deficiencies to overcome before they are anywhere near as good as an optical finder.
08-20-2010, 11:12 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
The optical viewfinder in Pentax DSLRs is a "proper pentaprism". It is, however sized to the size of the sensor by necessity.
Is it viable to magnify the aps-c format image in pentaprism, so it would look like FF?

08-21-2010, 08:36 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tranzistors Quote
Is it viable to magnify the aps-c format image in pentaprism, so it would look like FF?
Thats what Olympus did in the E-3 to make their 4/3's viewfinder able to compete with APS-C cameras like the K7, D300, etc. I believe Olympus used 1.15x magnification on the E-3. If you want to see some truly wretched view finders take a look through all Olympus DSLR's aside from the E-3 and E-30. Sony pentamirrors are also quite horrid, especially the models with live view. Seems like they're aware of this based on the fact that they are about to release to release two DSLR's with EVF's instead of prisms.

I'm most likely done with DSLR's forever no matter what size they make the OVF's these days, because I simply don't see a point in putting up with the bulk and mirror slap when I'm perfectly happy using EVF's, but if Pentax would put something like a 1.3x in their next DSLR then I would seriously think about getting it.
08-21-2010, 09:29 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
It's not beyond the digital world, but it is beyond the class of cameras we are talking about in this thread. A $10k medium format camera is hardly justifiable or even attainable for 99.9% of us. On top of that, it's not even an option for those of us in the USA yet.

I was clearly talking about the 35mm/every day camera market
then you should use "sub $1000 market" word or something... because old used digital MFs are available for less than price of the new Pentax 645D
08-21-2010, 10:27 AM   #56
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Sony
QuoteQuote:
... are about to release to release two DSLR's with EVF's instead of prisms.
I thought you were making that up when I first read it. Sony apparently is building a camera that combines the worst attribute of EVIL (EVF) and DSLR (mirror size and slap) while retaining the advantages of neither.

QuoteQuote:
I'm most likely done with DSLR's forever no matter what size they make the OVF's these days, because I simply don't see a point in putting up with the bulk and mirror slap when I'm perfectly happy using EVF's,
Ah, that makes sense then. For me, the process of making a picture by looking at a picture of what I want to make a picture of (the EVF) just doesn't work well.

QuoteQuote:
... but if Pentax would put something like a 1.3x in their next DSLR then I would seriously think about getting it.
The O-ME53 gets you more than half way there. What are the drawbacks to making a large OVF in a < FF sensor camera? Reduced brightness, distortion, bulk of viewfinder optics? If Olympus E3 does it why haven't others?
08-21-2010, 11:56 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
I thought you were making that up when I first read it. Sony apparently is building a camera that combines the worst attribute of EVIL (EVF) and DSLR (mirror size and slap) while retaining the advantages of neither.
I wouldn't go quite that far with it. First off, it won't have any mirror slap because they are using a fixed translucent mirror. But the biggest advantage is they will still be able to use fast phase detection AF (plus 10 frame per second burst mode) and supposedly have AF in video mode. On top of that the A33 model is ridiculously small for a DSLR:


They're probably going to be pretty ingenious little cameras. If nothing else its good to see someone trying something different. That said, I'd still rather have a semi-pro weather sealed EVIL if starting from scratch on a system. This should be a pretty cool option for existing Sony/Minolta users though.
08-21-2010, 12:36 PM   #58
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There are some interesting points given in this thread.
With respect to the original title, I would ask why we are going for superzooms? - I don't really need the equivalent of >200mm (in 135mm speak) without a tripod, as unless the light is good, I won't be able to hold things steady enough to make use of the focal length. Imagine the size of a 16-135mm against a 18-250mm? - which I'd love somebody to come up with (compact 24-200mm 3.8-5.6ish equivalent). I'm sure that for micro 4/3 that this could be pretty tiny, since a 14-42 is pretty small already - I would not anticipate a 12-100 to be too big, given the aperture range.

I would also opine that there is a HUGE opportunity to provide a weather-sealed EVIL with a corresponding weather sealed lens for the travel market.

Having a tripod and a camera with live-view now, for detailed composition, I prefer using the screen and histogram/zoom for composition. And that is a 180 flip from me from last year.

Walking shots OTOH, I am still very much happier with an OVF. That being said, I have also had a chance to use the samsung NX-10 with the switch over when you bring it to your eye, and found that pretty good.
Now if they could bring back the eye control with that, that I used to have on me EOS-5, I would be very happy.

And while we are on wish-lists, why is the flash synch on these mirrorless cams so slow? I would have thought that without a mirror to worry about, the speeds could be faster?

Last edited by Clarkey; 08-21-2010 at 12:40 PM. Reason: wish list
08-22-2010, 03:47 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
I wouldn't go quite that far with it. First off, it won't have any mirror slap because they are using a fixed translucent mirror. But the biggest advantage is they will still be able to use fast phase detection AF (plus 10 frame per second burst mode) and supposedly have AF in video mode. On top of that the A33 model is ridiculously small for a DSLR:



They're probably going to be pretty ingenious little cameras. If nothing else its good to see someone trying something different. That said, I'd still rather have a semi-pro weather sealed EVIL if starting from scratch on a system. This should be a pretty cool option for existing Sony/Minolta users though.

It would be great to have such a small DSLR, but I suspect it will look like quite a different story from the top......
08-22-2010, 06:49 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clarkey Quote
And while we are on wish-lists, why is the flash synch on these mirrorless cams so slow? I would have thought that without a mirror to worry about, the speeds could be faster?
It's entirely to do with the mechanics of the shutter itself; if the mirror happens to stay out of the way too long, that's not going to be an issue.
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