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08-13-2010, 07:42 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by luke0622 Quote
youky63, good luck with Canon, Canon's AWB is not the best thing out there, they don't produce natural colors very well. 5D Mark II is a good camera, but the UI sucks.

I don't understand why people are so caught up with FX cameras.
Because a FF will make them better Photographers remember?


As for those that say there are a lot of FF-haters on this forum, you might be reading us wrong.

It's not that we don't want Pentax to go FF. For many of us it is quite the opposite. It's just that APS-C is a great format and Pentax doesn't need FF to survive. Olympus for instance doesn't have a FF but yet have a pro-level 4/3 camera with another one expected in September. The images taken with an E-3, even in low-light, can be absolutely stunning.

What Pentax needs more than FF is a camera that they market as a "pro-level" camera. If that happens to be FF, great. if not, that's fine too. Methinks a more extensive lens line-up (especially on the long-end) would also help deter much of the frustration many of us feel.

If Pentax were to make a FF, they need to make sure they include a "crop-mode" in order to keep their current crop lenses relevant for those that shelled out a lot of dough for them.

08-13-2010, 08:40 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Youky63: You'll have to spend a lot of $$ to get what you want, but... why not? We only live once
Good luck.
Thank you! And yes, you are right, we only live once, and I will probably only live in Japan once! So I want the best to keep it in my memory in my old days...
I know it will cost a lot, but I am ready for that. And if tomorrow Pentax decide to release a FF, it would not be much cheaper to me to get the same thing, since I don't yet have any adequate AF lens.
So I will wait a few more month (I don't need it until next spring and cherry blossom), expecting the release of the D700 replacement (which will probably induce a price drop for the 5DMkII) or even dream of a... 5DMkIII! (but probably not until Photokina 2011)
And with current prices, I still have a few yens to add a stellar Samyang 14mm f/2.8 (for landscape) to my (planned on several months to learned to use them one by one) 24-105mm f/4 IS + 70-200mm f2.8 or f/4 IS (faster and higher IQ vs smaller and lighter... difficult choice!) + Sigma 50mm f/1.4 EX (sharper 50mm in this league) and of course the wonderful 135mm f/2 (probably my next favourite lens, excepted if replaced during photokina by a 135mm f/1.8 IS )
I prefer Nikon's bodies but cannot find all the equivalent lenses in focal (135mm) weight (24-105 f/4, 70-200 f/4), IS (only 2 FF lenses stabilized in Nikon's lens line up! And not interested by 1 of them) and usually price (even worse for Sony, then don't ask why a850/900 is a failure: very bad sensor higher than 800 isos, most expensive lenses... How do you want to attract people?!?).

QuoteOriginally posted by luke0622 Quote
youky63, good luck with Canon, Canon's AWB is not the best thing out there, they don't produce natural colors very well. 5D Mark II is a good camera, but the UI sucks.

I don't understand why people are so caught up with FX cameras.
Thanks you too. But my K20D is also not so good with AWB, so I think I will just continue to support this draw back until Canon release a 5DMkIII, IV or V correcting the "problem". For me, until then, I will just continue to shoot in RAW+jpeg for all the difficult conditions or when I want the sharper results (with the inexpensive but astronomic Samyang 14mm for example I love this brand!!)
08-13-2010, 08:52 AM - 1 Like   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by aragondina Quote
I'll be selling my equipment and moving to Nikon

[snip]

So to answer your question again, I will be moving to Nikon if Pentax doesn't make an announcement of a FF at Photokina.
There is no point in waiting for the announcement. Pentax has never given any indication they intend to launch a ff camera. In fact, they have always made it clear that ff is not in their plans.

It sounds like you'll be much happier with Nikon, so why postpone the inevitable? It makes no sense to me.
08-13-2010, 08:57 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by aragondina Quote
Knowing how cheap many of you are here in this forum [snip]
Is it really necessary to insult the members of this forum just because you made the bad decision to buy into a system that didn't fit your wants?

08-13-2010, 09:00 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by youky63 Quote
5DMkIII! (but probably not until Photokina 2011)
There will be not a Photokina 2011.
08-13-2010, 09:29 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by eurostar Quote
There will be not a Photokina 2011.
OK, you are right, there is only 1 Photokina every 2 years. But still camera makers will not stop to produce new models, the end of the world is only in 2012 and they still can earn money until then!
I expect Canon to give a 5DMkII refreshing in end of 2011, about 1 year after the 1DsMkIV (they need to sell it first with its extra price ). I just hope they will add a popup flash, better sensor with still more isos and pixels, and a better/deeper handgrip (a la 645D, amazing, even better than the K7!)
08-13-2010, 10:07 AM   #37
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So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish!

Pentax can keep producing Model T APS-C cameras, I'm going FullFrame and will take my business to Nikon. I still have a number of great Nikon AI-S lenses from my film days that I can use too.

For all the FullFrame critics, Pentax makes some great stuff but it's all APS-C. The reason I haven't switched is that the D700 is two years old and Nikon is prepping its replacement which is said to have video and other improvements. The chances of me getting my hands on that new camera this year are slim. It will probably be out of stock for awhile at Amazon and brick and mortar stores. I'll probably have to sign up for a waiting list like people did at the initial launch of the Canon 5D MKII or Nikon D700.

Look at Pentax's lineup, two APS-C DSLR's.

The black K-X can be purchased for around $500.

The K-7 can now be purchased for less than $1,000.

The 645D is now $10,995, roughly $11,000. I believe that is what its US price was announced at with the standard lens.

Where's the middle ground? There's a huge gap in Pentax's lineup that should be filled with a decent FullFrame. If you don't want to buy it then don't. Those of us that do can stay with Pentax instead of changing brands.

The Mirrorless camera doesn't really fit that niche; plus, I bet it will be APS-C. To me a Mirrorless is for portability. I can toss a great Mirrorless camera in my hiking bag or take it biking easier than a DSLR. With the price wars between Sony, Samsung, Panasonic and Olympus I don't see a Pentax Mirrorless selling for more than a $1,000 with a lens anyway.

I'm not against Pentax selling APS-C cameras, or even the upcoming Mirrorless. Just give us some real choices. The Pentax product spread is too wide. I'm not interested in medium format.


Regardless of how great a Pentax APS-C or FullFrame DSLR will be, Pentax does little to market their cameras! Pentax needs to develop sales channels and support their products with advertising. Good advertising always pays for itself with increased sales! What good is having a great product if nobody knows about it?


QuoteOriginally posted by shuie Quote
What if the folks at pentax do what they have previously said and not announce a FF camera. What would you do if instead they concentrated in the same direction they have been heading all along in APS-C. What would you do if they released a camera with the latest sensor technology, not the last great thing, but the current next best thing. what if it had class leading AF. what if it had a stronger, more robust, weathersealed body than currently available from the other guys. what if the DR and high ISO specs where at the top of the class, rather than yesterdays news? Would you buy it? Would you say" yes, its the best that there is, but its not FF"?
Who is Pentax marketing to? Not studio Pros (sorry Benjikan). People who go outside with their DSLR's and shoot in tough conditions. Nature, wildlife, landscape, potentially sports, thats where I see Pentax going. The advantage of using smaller bodies, and smaller lenses to emulate the same results on a much larger FF system seems clear to me, in certain applications.
I know I would cheer a true cutting edge platform with the features Pentax has given us in the past. I imagine it would get a serious look from any photographer who has made their living carrying all they needed in a pack for a week to shoot in some remote area. If it apperaed the company was not going to release a one hit wonder, but would continue advancing, and staying at the head of the pack, I think many field Pros would adopt, FF or APS-C regardless. So to my original question, what if, what would you do?

Shu

I realize this may, or may not be news or rumors, but with all the speculation on the upcoming K-5? I wasn't sure where else to put it.
08-13-2010, 10:08 AM   #38
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I think the Olympus E3 illustrates the need for FF very well.

You say the photos are stunning - and they are nice. Looking through a lot of samples there are many beautiful photos from this camera. I think I am most impressed with the color from this camera, BUT...

As I look at samples I don't notice a single photo from that camera that wouldn't benefit TREMENDOUSLY from being shot with a larger sensor. I think the micro 4/3 shows the point better than APS-C since it is even smaller. But make no mistake, APS-C is also bettered by FF in presence, dimensionality, and overall quality.


QuoteOriginally posted by lurchlarson Quote
Because a FF will make them better Photographers remember?


As for those that say there are a lot of FF-haters on this forum, you might be reading us wrong.

It's not that we don't want Pentax to go FF. For many of us it is quite the opposite. It's just that APS-C is a great format and Pentax doesn't need FF to survive. Olympus for instance doesn't have a FF but yet have a pro-level 4/3 camera with another one expected in September. The images taken with an E-3, even in low-light, can be absolutely stunning.

What Pentax needs more than FF is a camera that they market as a "pro-level" camera. If that happens to be FF, great. if not, that's fine too. Methinks a more extensive lens line-up (especially on the long-end) would also help deter much of the frustration many of us feel.

If Pentax were to make a FF, they need to make sure they include a "crop-mode" in order to keep their current crop lenses relevant for those that shelled out a lot of dough for them.


08-13-2010, 10:37 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Inspector 17 Quote
I think the Olympus E3 illustrates the need for FF very well.

You say the photos are stunning - and they are nice. Looking through a lot of samples there are many beautiful photos from this camera. I think I am most impressed with the color from this camera, BUT...

As I look at samples I don't notice a single photo from that camera that wouldn't benefit TREMENDOUSLY from being shot with a larger sensor. I think the micro 4/3 shows the point better than APS-C since it is even smaller. But make no mistake, APS-C is also bettered by FF in presence, dimensionality, and overall quality.
I understand your point... but, in the specific case of the E-3, perhaps the images would benefit more from a latest-technology sensor rather than a larger sensor. Technology marches on and both APS-C and four-thirds are not standing still. Of course, neither is FF... but I think that the better the underlying sensor technology gets, the faster one reaches the point of diminishing returns in terms of the cost-benefit ratio. However... before anyone calls me anti FF...

Angevinn sums up very well the argument for a FF Pentax. Personally, I don't need FF (unless it's the same size and weight as a 35mm film SLR and costs less than $1000)... but if Pentax plans on being a competitive camera maker going forward, it should offer a full line of serious cameras. That includes MF, FF, APS-C and mirrorless. I realize Pentax dosn't make its own P&S cameras... and if this line doesn't contribute a lot to the bottom line, perhaps these devices should be dropped.

As many feel about FF, I personally feel about Pentax's lens line-up. Like everyone else, I'm hoping Pentax will make its camera and lens line-up fully competitive. But it may take some more time. That's why a clear announcement of the company's intentions at Photokina is vital.
08-13-2010, 10:39 AM   #40
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QuoteQuote:
What if the folks at pentax do what they have previously said and not announce a FF camera. What would you do if instead they concentrated in the same direction they have been heading all along in APS-C. What would you do if they released a camera with the latest sensor technology, not the last great thing, but the current next best thing. what if it had class leading AF. what if it had a stronger, more robust, weathersealed body than currently available from the other guys. what if the DR and high ISO specs where at the top of the class, rather than yesterdays news? Would you buy it?
Isn't the K-7 exactly that? And the K20D before it, for that matter?
08-13-2010, 10:46 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Angevinn Quote
Pentax can keep producing Model T APS-C cameras, I'm going FullFrame and will take my business to Nikon. I still have a number of great Nikon AI-S lenses from my film days that I can use too.
"Model T APS-C cameras"? Do you somehow believe the APS-C cameras are by definition primitive junk, and "FF", of course, modern marvels?

I'd look at Pentax's camera line-up after Photokina. I wouldn't like to make a judgement that won't be valid few weeks from now.

The 645D can't be used as an argument, IMO. We're not talking about the same system, and Pentax doesn't need and can't afford to fill the gap between it and the K-mount system; instead, they should make sure there are no big gaps in the K-mount system. And before a ~2000$ "FF", I'd say a high-end APS-C camera is more urgently needed. I hope they'll be able to have both, in the not so distant future.
My 2 cents.

Good luck with your Nikon.
08-13-2010, 11:01 AM   #42
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While the K-20 used a new high specd sensor that was top in its class, the AF was not class leading. The K-7 has made some improvements in AF but basically reused an existing sensor ( with some design changes). In many ways the K-7 was a class leader at the time of its announcement, but unfortunatly was trumped by the 7d (in some ways). What I would be excited with would be a truely class leading product. People may say Pentax can't do it, but I feel if Pentax stepped forward and brought out a line of true pro APS-c bodies, some would migrate towards these smaller systems, and many who would otherwise abandon Pentax for a FF system may stay. One nice thing with the APS format for me is I don't need to haul as large of lenses all the time to reach out. So smaller, lighter, faster handling, less expensive lenses can fill the void. (one of the reasons i don't use my 800 f8 as much.) If Pentax shuns the FF format, for at least a while, I think Pentax may step up their APS systems to appeal to Pros who need toughness and smaller size. JMHO

Shu
08-13-2010, 11:16 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Inspector 17 Quote
I think the Olympus E3 illustrates the need for FF very well.

You say the photos are stunning - and they are nice. Looking through a lot of samples there are many beautiful photos from this camera. I think I am most impressed with the color from this camera, BUT...

As I look at samples I don't notice a single photo from that camera that wouldn't benefit TREMENDOUSLY from being shot with a larger sensor. I think the micro 4/3 shows the point better than APS-C since it is even smaller. But make no mistake, APS-C is also bettered by FF in presence, dimensionality, and overall quality.
Well first of all the E-3 is 3 years old. Ancient. The E-5 is supposed to come out at Photokina (they're skipping E-4).

Second, I don't think you've mentioned WHAT it is about FF that you desperately need. You say that FF is better, but I want to know how. How do you mean the photos would be tremendously better by being shot FF?
08-13-2010, 12:02 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by lurchlarson Quote
If Pentax were to make a FF, they need to make sure they include a "crop-mode" in order to keep their current crop lenses relevant for those that shelled out a lot of dough for them.
This is the smartest remark so far in this thread!!!!!!
08-13-2010, 12:36 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by shuie Quote
One nice thing with the APS format for me is I don't need to haul as large of lenses all the time to reach out. So smaller, lighter, faster handling, less expensive lenses can fill the void. (one of the reasons i don't use my 800 f8 as much.)
This is a huge point for many of us. Only a few years ago, I'd have put up with the size and weight of a FF DSLR system and APS-C would have been my back-up. Today, thanks to technology improvements, APS-C is my primary system and micro four-thirds is my #2.

I'm not poo-pooing those would want and need FF (see my post above) but size and weight has become just as important as image quality to me - and to many others. I'm not old and feeble - but I have a busy life with many demands for my time, energy and money. I can no longer allocate so much of my resources to meeting the demands of a FF system.

If Pentax unveils a FF camera that's the same size and weight as a 35mm film SLR and offers the body for under $1000, of course I'd be happy to reconsider. Who knows? Maybe they will one day.
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