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08-23-2010, 09:39 AM   #226
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QuoteOriginally posted by Vaikis_ Quote
there won't be any DA L lenses, stop joking.
Ok, perhaps one should say, there won't be any DA* and Limited lenses either.

08-23-2010, 09:40 AM   #227
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QuoteOriginally posted by glanglois Quote
I didn't start this but I'll note that I don't need a FF-equivalent of 200mm. I could use the equivalent of about 300mm - hence the 70-200 on an APS-C K-7.

I'm not convinced that I'd get a lot of value from in-lens stabilization or a somewhat faster internal motor. But that's where Sigma, for example, is taking us - and for a great deal of money!

It's to bad that Pentax/Hoya has ceded the zoom market to companies targeting C&N users (no screw drive, no in-body stabilization, pricing based on no more than beating C&N's bloated numbers). Worse yet, we still see that some capabilities were cut from the Pentax-mount lenses without a corresponding price cut.

OK - end of rant. 135mm = 200mm for us. 200mm = 300mm for us. Big difference.
i was just stating that the 70-200mm range is a traditional FF range, and that equivalent scope of view is covered by the 50-135mm for APS-C, the size all Pentax SLRs sensors are currently.

there are certainly Pentax lenses that cover 200mm. 300mm even. i don't believe the 105-300mm equivalent was ever a 'traditional' zoom range but even if it was considered that, the 60-250mm DA* covers that range too.
08-23-2010, 09:41 AM   #228
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Then buy a Sony! Or wait for the $1,200 APS-C K-5 street price.

You DO know that the MSRP prices are for the taxman and accountants, right? They're not "real" prices from the distribution channel to the consumer?

You do know that, right?
Ummm, no. The taxman doesn't care about advertised price - he wants to know at what price the goods actually changed hands. The accountant wants to gather and document real financial data, revenues and costs, debits and credits. The accountant is not interested in what's on a price list or a sale flyer.

The relationship between MSRP and actual sale price varies all over the map, depending on more things than I have time to write.

But we all have this basic understanding: sellers' prices are often driven by the competitors' pricing and product strategy.


MSRP is very much a concern of the distribution channel. It can get very annoying for them and confusing to buyers when the MSRP and street price are far apart.

I'm certain that Pentax would like very much to keep the street price close to the MSRP for a lot of reasons. It will fall below that only if buyers refuse to pay it.

The K-7 dropped quickly when some portion of the market looked at specs and reviews - and held onto their money.

The K-X did not drop so steeply - the current street price is very close to what I paid in December and not all that far from MSRP. The market found it a good value and responded.

Supply and demand. Marginal utility versus marginal cost. Nothing complicated.
08-23-2010, 09:43 AM   #229
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
i was just stating that the 70-200mm range is a traditional FF range, and that equivalent scope of view is covered by the 50-135mm for APS-C, the size all Pentax SLRs sensors are currently.

there are certainly Pentax lenses that cover 200mm. 300mm even. i don't believe the 105-300mm equivalent was ever a 'traditional' zoom range but even if it was considered that, the 60-250mm DA* covers that range too.
There are the sigma 100-300mm F4, and countless 100-300mm f4.5-*** standard zooms from the film era. I totally agree that the 50-135mm is covering the previous '70-200mm f2.8' lens on aps-c format. I think it is safe to say there are a multitude of different focal length zooms that are out there, and different people find their style fits certain ones!

08-23-2010, 09:50 AM   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
Ok, perhaps one should say, there won't be any DA* and Limited lenses either.
Regular DAs are just fine by me.
08-23-2010, 09:55 AM   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by glanglois Quote
Ummm, no. The taxman doesn't care about advertised price - he wants to know at what price the goods actually changed hands. The accountant wants to gather and document real financial data, revenues and costs, debits and credits. The accountant is not interested in what's on a price list or a sale flyer.

The relationship between MSRP and actual sale price varies all over the map, depending on more things than I have time to write.

But we all have this basic understanding: sellers' prices are often driven by the competitors' pricing and product strategy.

MSRP is very much a concern of the distribution channel. It can get very annoying for them and confusing to buyers when the MSRP and street price are far apart.

I'm certain that Pentax would like very much to keep the street price close to the MSRP for a lot of reasons. It will fall below that only if buyers refuse to pay it.

The K-7 dropped quickly when some portion of the market looked at specs and reviews - and held onto their money.

The K-X did not drop so steeply - the current street price is very close to what I paid in December and not all that far from MSRP. The market found it a good value and responded.

Supply and demand. Marginal utility versus marginal cost. Nothing complicated.
The taxman cares about MSRP because it is the starting value used for depreciation purposes on residualized inventory. If you have unsold inventory in durable goods you want them marked MSRP, not street value. There isn't a "mark to market" in cameras that I know of
08-23-2010, 10:30 AM   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The taxman cares about MSRP because it is the starting value used for depreciation purposes on residualized inventory. If you have unsold inventory in durable goods you want them marked MSRP, not street value. There isn't a "mark to market" in cameras that I know of
Most people stay in business by buying lower, selling higher. Paying taxes on retail prices when you bought your inventory at a fraction of the cost doesn't make much sense does it? Pretty much three ways to value inventory for taxes in the US, cost, market value, or capitalization according to this site, Inventory - Manufacturing Tax Tips It's on the Internet so probably isn't really authoritative though, but somehow I think it is more accurate than your post.

Thank you
Russell
08-23-2010, 10:30 AM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The taxman cares about MSRP because it is the starting value used for depreciation purposes on residualized inventory. If you have unsold inventory in durable goods you want them marked MSRP, not street value. There isn't a "mark to market" in cameras that I know of
Edit: Russell wrote what I was thinking but from a more knowledgeable perspective. I'll delete the rest of my post.


Last edited by glanglois; 08-23-2010 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Russell did it better
08-23-2010, 11:02 AM   #234
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My prediction:

Whatever Pentax release, we will have lots of people complaining and predicting the demise of Pentax, Hoya and possibly Japan as a nation.

Some possible, plausible failed combinations:

  1. FF Pentax, with bad (read excellent, but one year to late) high ISO noise, but much improved AF-S + AF-C.
  2. FF Pentax, without improved AF but improved high ISO noise ratio.
  3. FF Pentax, without improved AF and slightly worse high ISO noise ratio, compared to Canon/Nikon.
  4. APS-C Pentax, with much improved AF and high ISO noise ratio. (what?? No FF!?)
  5. FF Pentax, with much improved AF and high ISO noise ratio. (what?? no FF lens lineup to match Nikon / Canon!?)
Want to bet which failed combination it will be this time?

I am sure there are many more possible fails, but I will grab my popcorn and wait it out... and possibly snatch up a K-5 if DR + high ISO noise is improved, compared to the trusty old K20D. Faster AF would be nice, but...
08-23-2010, 11:16 AM   #235
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
they can certainly release some cheap glass, it just can't be *all* their doing.

and isn't the 50-135mm DA* 2.8 the lens you're looking for? its the APS-C equivalent to 70-200mm (and has SDM), do you use film? why do you need the FF focal length?
nope i dont want a 50-135mm - yeah might be the aps-c equivalent of full frame but i dont give a shit about full frame - i want the added reach of the 200mm but with fast aperture and i dont want a prime as i makes framing much more difficult and when in a zoo/wildlife park you need to be right up close to the fence if you dont want it in the images

and yeah the DA* 60-250mm would be perfect for my needs if it was only f2.8 not f4 - i often find that i really need it since light conditions aren't always briliant around these parts and if your under the canopy of a forest then you definately need it - though i still wouldn't trust a pentax sdm lens at the moment they are simply to unreliable - i dont want to spend £1400 (figuring based off other 70-200mm f2.8 lenses though imagine a 60-250 would likely be more expensive but would probably lose some quality with the increased focal range) on a lens and then find a couple months later its a glorified paper weight (not a manual focus type person - dont think the viewfinder is large enough to do it with any accuracy)

Last edited by stormcloud; 08-23-2010 at 11:24 AM.
08-23-2010, 11:34 AM   #236
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The taxman cares about MSRP because it is the starting value used for depreciation purposes on residualized inventory. If you have unsold inventory in durable goods you want them marked MSRP, not street value. There isn't a "mark to market" in cameras that I know of
QuoteOriginally posted by Russell-Evans Quote
Most people stay in business by buying lower, selling higher. Paying taxes on retail prices when you bought your inventory at a fraction of the cost doesn't make much sense does it? Pretty much three ways to value inventory for taxes in the US, cost, market value, or capitalization according to this site, Inventory - Manufacturing Tax Tips It's on the Internet so probably isn't really authoritative though, but somehow I think it is more accurate than your post.

Thank you
Russell
{Sets popcorn aside}

Depreciation of capital inventory at the manufacturer level differs from inventory accounting at the retail distributor level. Most cameras and lenses are not "constant run" items, but rather "batch run" items. The manufacturer builds a supply of the item and intends to hold an inventory of the item for more than one year. Such inventory is Capital Inventory.

Depreciation of this "held" or "capital" inventory can be a significantly meaningful accounting item.

Net Profits occur after taxes are paid. Depreciation of capital inventory reduces Gross Profit in the current period versus expenditure of capital (to build the inventory) in a prior period, lowers crrent period tax rate and thus increases current period Profit MARGIN.

HOYA is all about market share and margin.

{Picks up popcorn}
08-23-2010, 11:36 AM   #237
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
a lot of new DA L is catastrophe
That's right, sort of like the floods in Pakistan, the oil leak in the Gulf and the doubling of mortality figures due to bad air in Russia. A real catastrophe.
08-23-2010, 11:38 AM   #238
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QuoteOriginally posted by stormcloud Quote
nope i dont want a 50-135mm - yeah might be the aps-c equivalent of full frame but i dont give a shit about full frame - i want the added reach of the 200mm but with fast aperture and i dont want a prime as i makes framing much more difficult and when in a zoo/wildlife park you need to be right up close to the fence if you dont want it in the images

and yeah the DA* 60-250mm would be perfect for my needs if it was only f2.8 not f4
So, you want a DA* 60-250 at double the weight and price to save one stop of light. Sounds like you bought in to the wrong system then. I recommend selling and moving to a brand that does have what you want.
08-23-2010, 11:49 AM   #239
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weight really doesn't bother me and price well all fast zoom lens are pricy just dont see why pentax cant produce a lens like this - everyone else and most 3rd party lens manufacturers do

as it is i have been tempted to switch systems - and am jsut waiting to see what is gonna be announced - if nikon has a d400 with good high iso performance and afew extra MP then i will probably switch - if i prefer the look of the k-5 then guess i will just have to get the sigma 70-200mm f2.8 - at least with it i would get a reliable autofocus motor
08-23-2010, 11:59 AM   #240
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QuoteOriginally posted by stormcloud Quote
nope i dont want a 50-135mm - yeah might be the aps-c equivalent of full frame but i dont give a shit about full frame - i want the added reach of the 200mm but with fast aperture and i dont want a prime as i makes framing much more difficult and when in a zoo/wildlife park you need to be right up close to the fence if you dont want it in the images

and yeah the DA* 60-250mm would be perfect for my needs if it was only f2.8 not f4 - i often find that i really need it since light conditions aren't always briliant around these parts and if your under the canopy of a forest then you definately need it - though i still wouldn't trust a pentax sdm lens at the moment they are simply to unreliable - i dont want to spend £1400 (figuring based off other 70-200mm f2.8 lenses though imagine a 60-250 would likely be more expensive but would probably lose some quality with the increased focal range) on a lens and then find a couple months later its a glorified paper weight (not a manual focus type person - dont think the viewfinder is large enough to do it with any accuracy)
sounds like you have a very specific set of needs. for these rather isolated cases I'm glad for 3rd Party lens makers Sigma, Tamron and Tokina making lenses of all types for all types of cameras. Make no mistake, the 70-200mm 2.8 is an FF lens type. I certainly can't blame Pentax for not maintaining a full FF lens line without an FF camera (yet).
. I feel we're rather lucky they're still making the full-frame FA Limiteds.

Last edited by illdefined; 08-23-2010 at 12:05 PM.
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