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08-23-2010, 12:20 PM   #241
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
{Sets popcorn aside}

Depreciation of capital inventory at the manufacturer level differs from inventory accounting at the retail distributor level. Most cameras and lenses are not "constant run" items, but rather "batch run" items. The manufacturer builds a supply of the item and intends to hold an inventory of the item for more than one year. Such inventory is Capital Inventory.

Depreciation of this "held" or "capital" inventory can be a significantly meaningful accounting item.

Net Profits occur after taxes are paid. Depreciation of capital inventory reduces Gross Profit in the current period versus expenditure of capital (to build the inventory) in a prior period, lowers crrent period tax rate and thus increases current period Profit MARGIN.

HOYA is all about market share and margin.

{Picks up popcorn}
I concur. My reference was to the taxman giving a hoot about MSRP. In Canada we have no manufacturer's tax having a national sales tax instead. So MSRP has persisted as a mark for channel and manufacturer inventory valuation and residulization. Some companies (Apple) permit no deviance from MSRP. Others have tried to lock the MSRP in (Toyota tried a "no dicker sticker"), while trying to retain the right to set different channel prices. That did't go far with the taxman nor regulators nor consumers when they got wind of it.

08-23-2010, 02:18 PM   #242
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I concur. My reference was to the taxman giving a hoot about MSRP. In Canada we have no manufacturer's tax having a national sales tax instead. So MSRP has persisted as a mark for channel and manufacturer inventory valuation and residulization. Some companies (Apple) permit no deviance from MSRP. Others have tried to lock the MSRP in (Toyota tried a "no dicker sticker"), while trying to retain the right to set different channel prices. That did't go far with the taxman nor regulators nor consumers when they got wind of it.
For many years in the USA the MSRP WAS the price under a law/regulation called "Fair Trade Pricing." IOW, the manufacturer set the price and all distributors were required to sell at that price - dicsounting was not only not allowed - it wasn't LEGAL!!. Fair Trade Pricing was a relic of WWII price control and resource allocation schemes. Subsequently, manufacturerss convinced the Department of Commerce that pricing management was an integral part of marketing strategy (Buick vs. Oldsmobile vs. Chevrolet for essentially the same transportation) and should be regulated IN THEiR FAVOR.

Beginning in the late 60's and continuing through the 80's many, many restraints to trade such as Fair Trade Pricing were terminated. In some cases (automobiles are a prime example) consumers and manufacturers still habitually refer to MSRP. I believe most of those cases have to do with capital inventory accounting.
08-23-2010, 02:37 PM   #243
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I think a lot of them have to do with leading buyers to believe they're getting a deal. And in most cases, I think, the manufacturers are using the one tool they have to influence pricing in some jurisdictions - the legal permission to deny dealers the ability to publicly advertise a price lower than MSRP. No billboards, no TV ads, no newspaper inserts, and no discounted pricing on the Web site product page. Put it the cart, my friend, and we'll tell you want our current offer is.

And speaking of autos, I once walked into an auto dealer boldly asking for a car at his invoice. He said, "Why not? That's what we'll sell to anyone at. Anything lower than that we'll have to talk." I felt an idiot and did my homework after that.
08-23-2010, 02:39 PM   #244
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
And, in case you haven't noticed, there is a worldwide economic problem. Cheap is in.
You are definitely correct here. This is going to be a long term structural economic problem at least here in the US for quite some time. The ability of Americans of modest or middle class means to finance what would have once been considered extravagant lifestyles by piling up credit card and home equity debt will no longer be possible.

Then there is the additional problem of a govt. hamstrung by decades of irresponsible spending (only one President in the last 30 years actually balanced a budget and I believe that was only for one year of his total term in office). The upcoming fiscal year 2011 defense budget in the US is over $700 billion dollars. One wonders how long we can maintain that ridiculous illusion. Based on our performance in Iraq and Afghanistan one also wonders if we are even remotely getting our monies worth. In some ways nothing more metaphorically sums up the complete idiocy of the current state we Americans find ourselves in than flying a multi billion dollar radar evading plane (the B2) half way around the world (they are based in St. Louis) to drop bombs on an "enemy" whose most sophisticated weapon is a 1950's era Soviet made AK47. Funny the AK47's seems to be winning.......

08-23-2010, 03:01 PM   #245
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
You are definitely correct here. This is going to be a long term structural economic problem at least here in the US for quite some time. The ability of Americans of modest or middle class means to finance what would have once been considered extravagant lifestyles by piling up credit card and home equity debt will no longer be possible.
QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote

Then there is the additional problem of a govt. hamstrung by decades of irresponsible spending (only one President in the last 30 years actually balanced a budget and I believe that was only for one year of his total term in office). The upcoming fiscal year 2011 defense budget in the US is over $700 billion dollars. One wonders how long we can maintain that ridiculous illusion. Based on our performance in Iraq and Afghanistan one also wonders if we are even remotely getting our monies worth. In some ways nothing more metaphorically sums up the complete idiocy of the current state we Americans find ourselves in than flying a multi billion dollar radar evading plane (the B2) half way around the world (they are based in St. Louis) to drop bombs on an "enemy" whose most sophisticated weapon is a 1950's era Soviet made AK47. Funny the AK47's seems to be winning.......

Not to be overly contradictory, but, the Congressional Budget office and the US Statistical Abstraxt say otherwise. Defense spending as a percentage of total spending has declined dramatically. The TOTAL COST of Iraq and Adghanistan combined, from 2003 through 2010 (CY) has been $709 Billion. During that time
  • Total federal outlays: $22,296 billion.
  • Cumulative deficit: $4,731 billion.
  • Medicare spending: $2,932 billion.
  • Iraq War spending: $709 billion.
  • The Obama stimulus: $572 billion
Defense spensing isn't the problem - it isn't big enough to have any material effect.

Remeber, this isn't B.S. - it is Congressional Budget Office and US Statistical Supplement - real facts not smoke and political mirrors.

See the link for citations.

Iraq: Its not the war that Broke Us
08-23-2010, 03:12 PM   #246
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QuoteOriginally posted by ozlizard Quote
I really hope that Pentax comes up with something more exciting than what is suggested here. Why would you upgrade from a K20 or a K7 or a KX?
I went from K20D to K-7 and it was well worth it, for me, for my purposes. So i guess K20D to K-5 will also be worth it, for some people, for some purposes. We are all different with different needs.

Stormcloud - looks like we are both in the same boat.
08-23-2010, 03:20 PM   #247
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Not to be overly contradictory, but, the Congressional Budget office and the US Statistical Abstraxt say otherwise. Defense spending as a percentage of total spending has declined dramatically. The TOTAL COST of Iraq and Adghanistan combined, from 2003 through 2010 (CY) has been $709 Billion.
I think stanleyk was making the point about the total US defence spend. You seem to be confusing US Defence spending per annum in TOTAL (which is about $700 billion in 2010, including the Iraq/Afghan appropriation) with US defence spending on Iraq/Afghanistan (which might indeed be $700 billion 2003-2010).

Additionally the US has defence related expenditures outside of the DoD, which when added into the mix bring the 2010 defence spend to about $1 trillion.

Military budget of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are also a few good charts in the wikipedia article, including one showing defence spending as a proportion of USGovt outlays since 1950. It has indeed been creeping up over the last 10 years.
08-23-2010, 03:28 PM   #248
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Lets move causes to another section. I'm just as certain there is one as I am that I don't go there.

The effect is that a lot of people, at least those I know, are less confident in their ability to predict their financial future than they were five years ago. Jobs are fewer and employers, even public employers, struggle. "Teacher" no longer equals "job security".

Many of us are managing risk in our photo investments: I don't know what's around the corner so I'm not investing in a $1,000+ lens, they say. Maybe not a $500 lens, at least for now.

If Pentax isn't offering FF when I need it, there's not a lot of point in "investing" in FF glass. The risk averse stick with APS-C and mitigate risk by purchasing inexpensive "non-investment grade" glass. They figure it's less capex to lose if they have to abandon the mount.

Risk-averse people may be inhibited from changing mounts now: they can switch bodies but are not certain that they can continue the FF glass investment to replicate their current inventory. And the used market for K mount may be less robust than a couple of years ago - doesn't go as far in buying the equivalent new C&N gear.

It may be OK that Pentax returns to some of the "value brand" roots. Not necessarily cheap, but good enough (at the low end) to learn photography at a good price and have a lot of fun at it.

As long as there's room to move up when the owner's standards rise.

Me? I'd vote for a lineup that is inexpensive (current K-X kits and perhaps a DA L prime) at the learner level with room to progress to the mid-range with Pentax carving a niche in the outdoor market.

I really don't care if Pentax sells K-X by the pallet in Walmart. As long as they're creating new markets and revenue streams .....

08-23-2010, 03:30 PM   #249
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
For many years in the USA the MSRP WAS the price under a law/regulation called "Fair Trade Pricing." IOW, the manufacturer set the price and all distributors were required to sell at that price - dicsounting was not only not allowed - it wasn't LEGAL!!. Fair Trade Pricing was a relic of WWII price control and resource allocation schemes. Subsequently, manufacturerss convinced the Department of Commerce that pricing management was an integral part of marketing strategy (Buick vs. Oldsmobile vs. Chevrolet for essentially the same transportation) and should be regulated IN THEiR FAVOR.

Beginning in the late 60's and continuing through the 80's many, many restraints to trade such as Fair Trade Pricing were terminated. In some cases (automobiles are a prime example) consumers and manufacturers still habitually refer to MSRP. I believe most of those cases have to do with capital inventory accounting.
Ah! That's right. You're taking me back to some b-school history. MSRP is an anachronism which has been turned on its head through contractual prohibitions. Up here it is retained in part precisely because of the taxman in a sales tax system. That and the phenomenon known as consumer discount sentiment "I won't buy it if it's not on sale", even though it was marked up 30% before the sale!

We are very conscious of gamed "channel stuffing" write-downs to take advantage of the capital tax write-downs on standing inventory.

The tie-in here for Pentax products is that we should not take the MSRP too seriously. It's a starting price, almost always high. It sets the initial price point vis-a-vis competitors, but is no reflective of the final cost to the consumer. ogl and others are going overboard on the cost. Few models sell for the asking premium (gosh darn that LX5!).

glanglois: that's a very funny story.
08-23-2010, 03:44 PM   #250
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QuoteOriginally posted by glanglois Quote

I really don't care if Pentax sells K-X by the pallet in Walmart. As long as they're creating new markets and revenue streams .....
I don't think pentax is doing enough to create new customers, they're only doing enough to keep people in the K mount and stop existing pentax customers switching brands, this is a lot easier when people have 1000's invested in lenses but I have about 200 invested in mostly MF glass, if I had a 50-135 or a 16-50 it would be a different story, i'd buy the k5 and be done with it, but i've got no ties to pentax, the 550 is alluring, the 7d will probably be cheaper than the k5 (and nothing seems to suggest the k5 will beat it), and the 5dmk2 will drop in price when the mk3 comes out

basically if I wasn't already in pentax I don't think there's anything there that would make me buy a k mount camera. i'd buy a 550d and get a mk2 further down the line

even the used market seems to favour canikon, I do use MF glass but it's a pain and I need an AF system I can trust, and lenses like the tamron 28-75 come up much more often on canon/nikon than pentax. Flash as well, jessops/yongnuo do E-TTL flash guns for half that of the pentax 360, yes the original canon speedlights are top dollar but at least there is a 3rd party

it's the chicken and egg, pentax should IMO market a 7d beater- even if it's sold at a loss they need to get people into the K mount, the more people that are on k mount the more 3rd party manufacturers will be interested in supporting, not that really would benefit pentax though I guess


I had a HD DVD player, I am always terrified that sigma/tamron/zeiss will announce that they're no longer making k mount glass
08-23-2010, 03:53 PM   #251
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QuoteOriginally posted by glanglois Quote
I really don't care if Pentax sells K-X by the pallet in Walmart. As long as they're creating new markets and revenue streams .....
I second that! I don't care if Pentax sells goofy "rainbow-colored" cameras in Walmart as long
as they're selling cameras.

One could easily argue that the success of the K-x camera has kept Pentax from tanking.

Full-Framers don't seem to understand that not only is FF a small niche-market item, but the
expenditure required to produce one right now could possibly bankrupt Pentax if it failed.

I confess I would absolutely love to have a Pentax Full Frame Camera, but I also find all
the FF whining on this forum extremely annoying.

If you are so desperate KEH always has used Canon 5D's for sale at a fairly reasonable price.

Last edited by jeff knight; 08-23-2010 at 04:06 PM.
08-23-2010, 03:57 PM   #252
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Let's not get into the mud-slinging, Jeff.

There's nowt amiss with a red K-X. Particularly mine .....
08-23-2010, 04:02 PM   #253
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QuoteOriginally posted by glanglois Quote
Let's not get into the mud-slinging, Jeff.

There's nowt amiss with a red K-X. Particularly mine .....
Oops Ganglois! I am very sorry. I will edit my post....
08-23-2010, 04:28 PM   #254
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeff knight Quote
I second that! I don't care if Pentax sells goofy "rainbow-colored" cameras in Walmart as long
as they're selling cameras.

One could easily argue that the success of the K-x camera has kept Pentax from tanking.

Full-Framers don't seem to understand that not only is FF a small niche-market item, but the
expenditure required to produce one right now could possibly bankrupt Pentax if it failed.
Sure, but just like was said above, someone buys into a camera mount knowing there's room to grow. Canon has the 550D and the 5Dmk2 and makes the consumer very aware of that, even if it's unlikely that Rebel purchaser will ever buy one. It's comforting knowing your brand is an authority in the industry.

That's why the K-r and DA-L isn't enough, and frankly neither is the K-7 and 645D in the current market. The K-5 needs to be a great competitive semi-pro level camera. And no, it doesn't have to be FF, as the 7D and D300 have proven.
08-23-2010, 04:58 PM   #255
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeff knight Quote
Oops Ganglois! I am very sorry. I will edit my post....
No need to apologize - I simply forgot to put a smiley on my objection.

I do have a red (sort of) K-X and am used to taking a bit of grief about it. OTOH, it's started a few conversations that allowed me to sing the Pentax praises. My black cameras never, ever did that.
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