Brief info about K-5 and KR

glanglois · 08-23-2010, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by illdefined

Sure, but just like was said above, someone buys into a camera mount knowing there's room to grow. Canon has the 550D and the 5Dmk2 and makes the consumer very aware of that, even if it's unlikely that Rebel purchaser will ever buy one. It's comforting knowing your brand is an authority in the industry.

That's why the K-r and DA-L isn't enough, and frankly neither is the K-7 and 645D in the current market. The K-5 needs to be a great competitive semi-pro level camera. And no, it doesn't have to be FF, as the 7D and D300 have proven.

I don't think my D3000 and D5000 friends have given a single thought to the upgrade path. If any thought at all, it's that Nikon has other cameras. Period.

Actually, they'd rather not think about that upgrade. They got into the market low for a reason and usually buy, at most, one add'l lens. For now.

Later? Some will move up. But a lot won't. A flash, a sports lens ..... Then time for a new "something". May not be DSLR. May not have C/N mount. They're simply not looking that far ahead.

Pentax, though, may find a way to attract would-be enthusiasts. Enthusiasts in the making. Enthusiasts with shallow pockets. Need something distinctive there. We'll see.

jeff knight · 08-23-2010, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by illdefined

Sure, but just like was said above, someone buys into a camera mount knowing there's room to grow. Canon has the 550D and the 5Dmk2 and makes the consumer very aware of that, even if it's unlikely that Rebel purchaser will ever buy one. It's comforting knowing your brand is an authority in the industry.

That's why the K-r and DA-L isn't enough, and frankly neither is the K-7 and 645D in the current market. The K-5 needs to be a great competitive semi-pro level camera. And no, it doesn't have to be FF, as the 7D and D300 have proven.

Well I don't really disagree with you at all, but the whole "growth" concept is relative to your personal needs and goals.

Perhaps you want to be a world class architectural, sports, or fashion photographer. You want to compete in the real world
and you want access to a wide variety of tools so you can have every competitive advantage. Then indeed your system
could be inhibiting your growth. I can understand that.

However, you could also argue that a photographer can continue to grow creatively with a cheap plastic Holga camera.
Being forced to get by with less has made many a weekend shutterbug into a real artist.

I am often shocked when people tell me, younger photographers especially, that "I can't move forward because I just
don't have the right equipment." This kind of gear-head mentality just holds people back. It's really an atificial ceiling.

Obviously you can't shoot a wedding with a pinhole camera, but you can still work wonders and continually grow as a
photographer with a lot less than a current Pentax system, if you have the will to work and the guts to persistently strive for it.

**Aristophanes** · 08-23-2010, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by illdefined

Sure, but just like was said above, someone buys into a camera mount knowing there's room to grow. Canon has the 550D and the 5Dmk2 and makes the consumer very aware of that, even if it's unlikely that Rebel purchaser will ever buy one. It's comforting knowing your brand is an authority in the industry.

That's why the K-r and DA-L isn't enough, and frankly neither is the K-7 and 645D in the current market. The K-5 needs to be a great competitive semi-pro level camera. And no, it doesn't have to be FF, as the 7D and D300 have proven.

Understand that the D300s is the top-end of the Nikon APS-C line, but the middle of their total offerings. A Nikon Pro I know has it as his backup to a D700/3 line (he also has a D40 for travel to very dangerous "get the shot and get out" spots).

Pentax's top is someone else's middle, maybe not in # of units sold, but likely in revenues. The specs make the K-5 competitive with the D300s. Won't know until tests. However, at the lower end, Pentax is to-to-toe with the K-x and maybe K-r and their lens line-ups. Nikon' zooms are peerless, but pricey, including for some non-VR glass. Same issue for Canon. Pentax's approach with the DA-L is to compete on price in an area where they can compete successfully.The DA-L 55-300 is the best kit telephoto zoom on the market and a very wise move by Pentax. Some DA-L primes make sense, especially if the market is in longer term flux vis-a-vis FF.

Ironically, Pentax is still seen as a top name brand in the industry and in consumer's minds. It's not until you walk into a camera store and compare shelf space that you see the marginalization.

**Aristophanes** · 08-23-2010, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by jeff knight

Obviously you can't shoot a wedding with a pinhole camera,

Yes. Yes...you can:

Turning the World on its Head :: Sheila Bocchine takes on wedding photography ? lensless style

jeff knight · 08-23-2010, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

Yes. Yes...you can:

Turning the World on its Head :: Sheila Bocchine takes on wedding photography ? lensless style

Wow, that is really. really cool. Thanks Aristophanes.

24X36NOW · 08-23-2010, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by stormcloud

can someone please explain why people are obsessed with FF - the only thing i can see that cant be replicated in apc is the shallower DOF - but with a f1.4 lens you can still knock the background out of focus rather easily - the rest..... well you get longer effective focal length so can do wildlife shots without nearly such expensive glass and the wide end we are jsut as well catered for in aps-c

so throw in a 35mm f1.4 and a 80mm f1.8 and should be fine for portrait work with aps-c no?? then with benefits of aps-c on top?

A viewfinder that doesn't suck; better image quality; wide angles that actually look like wide angles, instead of being rendered ordinary by the "crop factor."

Let's turn the issue around - would you be happy carrying a 35mm format camera and a bunch of 645 lenses to mount on it?! That's basically what long-time Pentax shooters are being asked to settle for with APS-C and 35mm lenses. It's a stop-gap format whose reason for existence has passed (i.e., FF sensors USED TO be extremely costly, but the cost now allows reasonably priced FF dSLRs to be made, hence the APS-Compromise has lost its "raison d'etre.")

illdefined · 08-23-2010, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

Ironically, Pentax is still seen as a top name brand in the industry and in consumer's minds. It's not until you walk into a camera store and compare shelf space that you see the marginalization.

Can't afford to have to have that shelf space get smaller and smaller. Or have 12 color cameras and two black ones.

peteng · 08-24-2010, 12:10 AM

I find it fun that when K-7 came out I read tons of reviews where ppl where overwhelmed. It was so fantastic... Not that much different then the K20D in the specs - I think?

Now the K-5 are rumored and the specs are just a little higher. It's still the great body with all buttons and functions. We hope to get great ISO-performance, better AF and better video-performance.

If K-5 nail those three changes I think it's a great camera! K-7 was really great, but for me the ISO-performance isn't enough.

If real-life test proves that the K-5 ISO-performance is 1-2 steps better I will buy one. If the price are too high I might look at the K-r.

I think those two cameras together with the 645D will be a great combination for Pentax. Then there's the rumored/confirmed EVIL too?

Christopher M.W.T · 08-24-2010, 12:19 AM

Be happy the new 16.2 MP Sony Sensor is already a winner

DronDrive · 08-24-2010, 12:26 AM

Sony SLT-A55 Review: 17. Conclusion & Samples: Digital Photography Review
Hm...I think samples from sony 14 mp is better then 16 mp

ogl · 08-24-2010, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by Christopher M.W.T

Be happy the new 16.2 MP Sony Sensor is already a winner

What winner? The winner of what?

http://masters.galleries.dpreview.com.s3.amazonaws.com/489337.jpg?AWSAccessK...RrGFexVlFm0%3d

is it good JPEG at ISO400?

blende8 · 08-24-2010, 01:21 AM

The studio images I see of the A55 are worse than those of the Kx.
Disappointing.
Let's hope that Pentax is doing better with this sensor.

gazonk · 08-24-2010, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by blende8

The studio images I see of the A55 are worse than those of the Kx.
Disappointing.
Let's hope that Pentax is doing better with this sensor.

As I just commented in another thread, the Imaging Resource studio images of the K-x are superior (both much more detail and far less chroma noise) to the studio images of the A-500. The A-500 has 12.3mp and was introduced August 27th last year, just a couple of weeks before the K-x, so it's reasonable to assume that their sensors are very similar.

If Pentax is able to outperform Sony equally well with the 16mp sensor, there's really no need to worry.

stormcloud · 08-24-2010, 02:04 AM

so the iso 25600 isn't so much an expanded setting as image stacking - thats abit dispointing

overall the iso noise performance from the canon 550d looked better - have to wait and see what pentax can do with it though

dynamic range is good at least though

Agnostic · 08-24-2010, 02:50 AM

I'm not particularly impressed with the sample shots from the A55 either but those may be affected by the Sony jpeg engine, it being a pre-production model, and the fact that the pellicle mirror reduces the light that reaches the sensor somewhat.
Pentax had better improve on the image quality I have seen from the A55 though.

The two caveats fo me to consider buying the K-5 are:

1. A dynamic range that's significantly better than the K-7 (which is horrid), I would say at least 12.5 EV (like the K-x) and a tonal range distribution that has not been tampered with to hide shadow noise by a steep drop off at the dark end (K20D and K-7).

2. Significantly improved noise characteristics compared to the K-7/K20D at ISO up to 1600 (apart from low light high ISO that particularly includes blue channel noise in the lower ISO range).

08-23-2010, 05:18 PM	#257
jeff knight Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 261	Originally posted by illdefined Sure, but just like was said above, someone buys into a camera mount knowing there's room to grow. Canon has the 550D and the 5Dmk2 and makes the consumer very aware of that, even if it's unlikely that Rebel purchaser will ever buy one. It's comforting knowing your brand is an authority in the industry. That's why the K-r and DA-L isn't enough, and frankly neither is the K-7 and 645D in the current market. The K-5 needs to be a great competitive semi-pro level camera. And no, it doesn't have to be FF, as the 7D and D300 have proven. Well I don't really disagree with you at all, but the whole "growth" concept is relative to your personal needs and goals. Perhaps you want to be a world class architectural, sports, or fashion photographer. You want to compete in the real world and you want access to a wide variety of tools so you can have every competitive advantage. Then indeed your system could be inhibiting your growth. I can understand that. However, you could also argue that a photographer can continue to grow creatively with a cheap plastic Holga camera. Being forced to get by with less has made many a weekend shutterbug into a real artist. I am often shocked when people tell me, younger photographers especially, that "I can't move forward because I just don't have the right equipment." This kind of gear-head mentality just holds people back. It's really an atificial ceiling. Obviously you can't shoot a wedding with a pinhole camera, but you can still work wonders and continually grow as a photographer with a lot less than a current Pentax system, if you have the will to work and the guts to persistently strive for it. Last edited by jeff knight; 08-23-2010 at 05:31 PM.

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08-23-2010, 05:03 PM	#256
glanglois Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Madison, Wis., USA Posts: 1,506	Originally posted by illdefined Sure, but just like was said above, someone buys into a camera mount knowing there's room to grow. Canon has the 550D and the 5Dmk2 and makes the consumer very aware of that, even if it's unlikely that Rebel purchaser will ever buy one. It's comforting knowing your brand is an authority in the industry. That's why the K-r and DA-L isn't enough, and frankly neither is the K-7 and 645D in the current market. The K-5 needs to be a great competitive semi-pro level camera. And no, it doesn't have to be FF, as the 7D and D300 have proven. I don't think my D3000 and D5000 friends have given a single thought to the upgrade path. If any thought at all, it's that Nikon has other cameras. Period. Actually, they'd rather not think about that upgrade. They got into the market low for a reason and usually buy, at most, one add'l lens. For now. Later? Some will move up. But a lot won't. A flash, a sports lens ..... Then time for a new "something". May not be DSLR. May not have C/N mount. They're simply not looking that far ahead. Pentax, though, may find a way to attract would-be enthusiasts. Enthusiasts in the making. Enthusiasts with shallow pockets. Need something distinctive there. We'll see.

08-23-2010, 05:51 PM	#258
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by illdefined Sure, but just like was said above, someone buys into a camera mount knowing there's room to grow. Canon has the 550D and the 5Dmk2 and makes the consumer very aware of that, even if it's unlikely that Rebel purchaser will ever buy one. It's comforting knowing your brand is an authority in the industry. That's why the K-r and DA-L isn't enough, and frankly neither is the K-7 and 645D in the current market. The K-5 needs to be a great competitive semi-pro level camera. And no, it doesn't have to be FF, as the 7D and D300 have proven. Understand that the D300s is the top-end of the Nikon APS-C line, but the middle of their total offerings. A Nikon Pro I know has it as his backup to a D700/3 line (he also has a D40 for travel to very dangerous "get the shot and get out" spots). Pentax's top is someone else's middle, maybe not in # of units sold, but likely in revenues. The specs make the K-5 competitive with the D300s. Won't know until tests. However, at the lower end, Pentax is to-to-toe with the K-x and maybe K-r and their lens line-ups. Nikon' zooms are peerless, but pricey, including for some non-VR glass. Same issue for Canon. Pentax's approach with the DA-L is to compete on price in an area where they can compete successfully.The DA-L 55-300 is the best kit telephoto zoom on the market and a very wise move by Pentax. Some DA-L primes make sense, especially if the market is in longer term flux vis-a-vis FF. Ironically, Pentax is still seen as a top name brand in the industry and in consumer's minds. It's not until you walk into a camera store and compare shelf space that you see the marginalization.

08-23-2010, 05:55 PM	#259
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by jeff knight Obviously you can't shoot a wedding with a pinhole camera, Yes. Yes...you can: Turning the World on its Head :: Sheila Bocchine takes on wedding photography ? lensless style

08-23-2010, 06:10 PM	#260
jeff knight Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 261	Originally posted by Aristophanes Yes. Yes...you can: Turning the World on its Head :: Sheila Bocchine takes on wedding photography ? lensless style Wow, that is really. really cool. Thanks Aristophanes.

08-23-2010, 07:26 PM	#261
24X36NOW Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: CT, USA Posts: 498	Originally posted by stormcloud can someone please explain why people are obsessed with FF - the only thing i can see that cant be replicated in apc is the shallower DOF - but with a f1.4 lens you can still knock the background out of focus rather easily - the rest..... well you get longer effective focal length so can do wildlife shots without nearly such expensive glass and the wide end we are jsut as well catered for in aps-c so throw in a 35mm f1.4 and a 80mm f1.8 and should be fine for portrait work with aps-c no?? then with benefits of aps-c on top? A viewfinder that doesn't suck; better image quality; wide angles that actually look like wide angles, instead of being rendered ordinary by the "crop factor." Let's turn the issue around - would you be happy carrying a 35mm format camera and a bunch of 645 lenses to mount on it?! That's basically what long-time Pentax shooters are being asked to settle for with APS-C and 35mm lenses. It's a stop-gap format whose reason for existence has passed (i.e., FF sensors USED TO be extremely costly, but the cost now allows reasonably priced FF dSLRs to be made, hence the APS-Compromise has lost its "raison d'etre.")

08-23-2010, 09:09 PM	#262
illdefined Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: NYC Posts: 929	Originally posted by Aristophanes Ironically, Pentax is still seen as a top name brand in the industry and in consumer's minds. It's not until you walk into a camera store and compare shelf space that you see the marginalization. Can't afford to have to have that shelf space get smaller and smaller. Or have 12 color cameras and two black ones.

08-24-2010, 12:10 AM	#263
peteng Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 25	I find it fun that when K-7 came out I read tons of reviews where ppl where overwhelmed. It was so fantastic... Not that much different then the K20D in the specs - I think? Now the K-5 are rumored and the specs are just a little higher. It's still the great body with all buttons and functions. We hope to get great ISO-performance, better AF and better video-performance. If K-5 nail those three changes I think it's a great camera! K-7 was really great, but for me the ISO-performance isn't enough. If real-life test proves that the K-5 ISO-performance is 1-2 steps better I will buy one. If the price are too high I might look at the K-r. I think those two cameras together with the 645D will be a great combination for Pentax. Then there's the rumored/confirmed EVIL too?

08-24-2010, 12:19 AM	#264
Christopher M.W.T Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,689	Be happy the new 16.2 MP Sony Sensor is already a winner

08-24-2010, 12:26 AM	#265
DronDrive New Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Novorossysk Posts: 14	Sony SLT-A55 Review: 17. Conclusion & Samples: Digital Photography Review Hm...I think samples from sony 14 mp is better then 16 mp

08-24-2010, 12:32 AM	#266
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382 Original Poster	Originally posted by Christopher M.W.T Be happy the new 16.2 MP Sony Sensor is already a winner What winner? The winner of what? http://masters.galleries.dpreview.com.s3.amazonaws.com/489337.jpg?AWSAccessK...RrGFexVlFm0%3d is it good JPEG at ISO400?

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08-24-2010, 01:21 AM	#267
blende8 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Bremen, Germany Photos: Albums Posts: 1,521	The studio images I see of the A55 are worse than those of the Kx. Disappointing. Let's hope that Pentax is doing better with this sensor.

08-24-2010, 01:52 AM	#268
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by blende8 The studio images I see of the A55 are worse than those of the Kx. Disappointing. Let's hope that Pentax is doing better with this sensor. As I just commented in another thread, the Imaging Resource studio images of the K-x are superior (both much more detail and far less chroma noise) to the studio images of the A-500. The A-500 has 12.3mp and was introduced August 27th last year, just a couple of weeks before the K-x, so it's reasonable to assume that their sensors are very similar. If Pentax is able to outperform Sony equally well with the 16mp sensor, there's really no need to worry.

08-24-2010, 02:04 AM	#269
stormcloud Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 232	so the iso 25600 isn't so much an expanded setting as image stacking - thats abit dispointing overall the iso noise performance from the canon 550d looked better - have to wait and see what pentax can do with it though dynamic range is good at least though

08-24-2010, 02:50 AM	#270
Agnostic Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Netherlands Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 414	I'm not particularly impressed with the sample shots from the A55 either but those may be affected by the Sony jpeg engine, it being a pre-production model, and the fact that the pellicle mirror reduces the light that reaches the sensor somewhat. Pentax had better improve on the image quality I have seen from the A55 though. The two caveats fo me to consider buying the K-5 are: 1. A dynamic range that's significantly better than the K-7 (which is horrid), I would say at least 12.5 EV (like the K-x) and a tonal range distribution that has not been tampered with to hide shadow noise by a steep drop off at the dark end (K20D and K-7). 2. Significantly improved noise characteristics compared to the K-7/K20D at ISO up to 1600 (apart from low light high ISO that particularly includes blue channel noise in the lower ISO range).