[bodhi]

Its interesting to see what feature would like the most users from other brands for their upcoming models.

from SonyAlphaRumors poll:

To appeal you the Sony A700 successor should have...(select a maximum of 5 options)

Weather sealed body (and lenses) (60%, 1,701 Votes)

[Big G]

I would like to see weather sealing on Canon's EF-S range too, especially considering the price of some of them. However this would take away from the L range. Perhaps they need to consider EF-S L lenses.

[Jonson PL]

I agree, just look at the Canon 7D!
In Canada, it has settled between 1500 and 1800 dollars, and that's an established market value!
Considering the K-5 is poised to come-in with higher specs at a lower price, I think Pentax is set to do a wonderful thing.
Besides... for anyone finding the prosumer price to steep, there is plenty of selection bellow that as well.

Good point

Canon and Nikon have more posibilities to choose from. Pentax has only 2 and the price for K7 is not so low even at the end of cycle (not talking about 645D)

Fun stuff. I remember when the K10 was critizised for coming too low down in prize. How Pentax had to be suffering, when they had to sell so low.
I think it is a good thing, if the K7 can hold its prize. Means that it still has a lot to offer

Since were looking at preliminary pricing vs mature market value, I doubt this will matter much with respect to retail given the usual adjustements trends. My guess is that it will follow in the path of the K-7's price history.

Assuming the K-5 comes-in at/or around: 1500US and is slated to settles at/or around: 1400, I'd say this would position it nicely amidst the competition. Not to mention the impact it would have on the upper-end product lines.

Sounds plausible

Actually, the K-7 has clean ISO 1000 and more. This images is shot at 1000ISO, and as if that wasn't enough, it is cropped 50% as well. No noise reduction.

Cute shot

For those who may be weary of the oft-cited "workman blaming his tools" cliche, or words to the same effect, whenever a someone expresses a desire for technological improvement, may I will suggest the use of the following retort:

"Presently there exist tools the use of which seem to be able to compensate for whatever I might be lacking in skill. Therefore I submit that all toolmakers should aspire to build to this more recently established standard."

Yup, I've mentioned to some newbies complaining about certain issues with a camera; that what they're after can easily be done with a 5.000 $ camera. And if they feel it to be a certain need, then for sure they should upgrade their sub 1.000 $ camera to a top of the line Pro cam.

Others have seen when they finally made the jump, how they initially got poorer results. Mastering a fully spec'd Pro body, can be frustrating indeed. One needs to come to terms with almost endless amounts of settings. For some a P&S simply is an easier option.

I can fully comprehend the choice of some to go for D700 or 1D Mark IV. They can for sure bring offerings that Pentax at present cannot. They come at a price though.

In response to:

(Pal Jensen)Actually, the K-7 has clean ISO 1000 and more. This images is shot at 1000ISO, and as if that wasn't enough, it is cropped 50% as well. No noise reduction.(end quote)


I agree with Pal Jensen's statement here as I have had similar experiences with my K-7 under stronger lighting conditions.

I notice I get more noise when I crop photos... There is no question about it from my experience.

I also question FF can really give you less noise. Yes and no I would suspect. If you fill up the viewing frame with a FF camera sure, I would think you would get a nice image with less noise. But when you crop it about 50%, I wouldn't think a FF would give you any better noise performance over an ASP-C sensor if all other things are equal.

This photo is about a 50% crop from my K-7:

Reddish Egret | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

I had the ISO at 1000 when I took this with my K-7:

Polydamas Butterfly | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Great shots !

Well everyone asked for solid high ISO performance with the K7 because this was one of the biggest issues of the K10d , i remember being very dissapointed when i first saw the results of the K7 , so they didn't really listen to what people asked for (The Nikon D90 blew the K7 away with very clean ISO6400).
Pentax cannot afford such dissapointments and drawbacks from Other makes, if Canon and Nikon are to dominate the market , it should only be because of there more agressive marketing policies and not because they are superior in quality and features then Pentax

Nope, people asked for better high Iso from the K10 and got it in the K20. With the great IQ from the K20, there were a lot of complaining about the lack of speed, with just 3 fps. Improvement in the regard came with the K7.
That noise characteristics were different from K20 to K7, of cause made some people cry foul.

I agree with all of this as well....actually this is what I was trying to say - K-7 is so good the K-5 has to be a amazing for me to upgrade. I am very happy with my K-7even in low light and DR was only a problem in paper and not in real life. I of course will take the K-x iso performance or predictive focus of Canikon....One year for R&D, but Pentax is quite a bit behind AF-C compared to Canikon, by much, much more than just a year, and I serioulsy doubt they've done much with the K-5now either.

Good to hear that K7 does well in real life situation, in regard to DR.
I would very much like one day to own a camera with the 14.6 Samsung sensor. Been fascinated by it, since the K20

You guys take this stuff to seriously. "Catastrophic" is an earthquake or tsunami or hurricane. Not having a lens you want is an inconvenience. Seriously.
And yes, if you don't like what a particular company offers you can can change brands. It's not a big deal, nor should you care what anyone thinks about your camera purchase. It's your camera why would you care what someone else thinks about your camera?

Well put. But that is how people react in the News and Rumor section. And in open forums like Dpr. Complaining is human nature :-)
I've pretty much quit Dpr, and only once and a while enter this News and Rumor section. I think people should have fun with their hobby, and try to do things that make them happy. Hence I most often stay in sub-forums, where I can learn and enjoy from peoples actual photography. And I follow and read of how top photographers overcome difficulties they run into.
I feel this is often the difference between us amateur and the Pros. The established figure out how to side-step problems, while the rest of us complain when we encounter them.

(Rhetorical question) Why do all discussions degenerate into auto focus, high iso or SDM discussions?

Those who complain about auto focus with Pentax act like something changed. Pentax used to have amazing auto focus, comparable to other companies and then, suddenly it didn't. Well, I have been shooting Pentax for roughly 12 years and the knock on it the whole time was that the auto focus was not great and that if you were a sport shooter you should consider another brand. This is not just because of camera bodies, but also lenses.

SDM does tend to be on the slow side. In addition, Pentax makes lenses that can be manual focused fairly easily. Unfortunately, this often means a longer focus throw and it take the lens longer to get there. Lenses like the DA 40 and the kit lens, that have very short focus throws actually have very rapid auto focus. I am amazed at how fast the kit lens is, particularly in comparison to the DA * 50-135 which is glacial in comparison.

All of this is to say that Pentax has not changed over time, people's expectations have changed. I too, hope for improvements, but the idea that Pentax will suddenly become Canon/Nikon is not a faint possibility.

Very true, couldn't have stated it better myself

First - I hope that 7D photo is not supposed to represent the best its sensor is capable of. If I see 100% shots like that coming from any of my bodies, including K20D and K-7, I am disappointed. Even my very old lenses can usually produce sharper results than that when viewed at 100%.


I'm not making excuses for the camera as I have had mixed luck with AFC (actually, I rarely even try it)... but was the camera set up use all focus points? Having not spent much time playing with it, I assume that if you're set to center point only or user-selected point, that it will only focus on a moving object in that point. I generally use user-select now (after using only center-point in everything up to the K-7) and I think that most of the time when I have a hard time focusing, it's because there's not much contrast in the specific area I've chosen. I probably should play with using Auto more - and weigh the risks of it focusing somewhere I don't want vs not catching focus at all.


There is certainly more DR there, you just need to use raw. It's not unusual for me to use "fill light" and "recovery" in Lightroom. Of course, turning down the contrast should give you extra DR, too. The higher the contrast, the lower the DR, until everything turns purely white and black - the ultimate contrast.

I wonder how much of the DR discussion is users expecting lower DR based on lab numbers, rather than real-world results. That being said, I would love to see the DR of the old Fuji DSLRs available in a modern body.

Thanks for the tips

There are so many variables... quality of lens, lens speed, and the big one - the in-camera processing. The D300 may have been putting out jpgs with lots of noise reduction, DR adjust, etc. Look nice on the LCD (which should be basically the same on D300 vs K-7) - not so nice on the PC. This is assuming that you just saw their photos on their LCD and not any other way. Certainly if both cameras were shooting ISO 800, you should see pretty comparable results.


Agreed - that's why I find the D700 much more interesting than the A850/900 or Canon's FF bodes. Unfortunately, the D700 has very limited adaptability to other lenses... if a camera existed with the FF D700 (or better still, the improved D3s sensor), with in-camera stabilization, and the Canon's ability to mount many other lenses on it via fairly simple adapters (or even just K-mount and M42s without needing glass for infinity focusing), it would be very, very compelling. Unfortunately, such a dream camera doesn't exist. If the K-5 truly does offer similar high ISO performance, than it will be the closest thing available.

and in real focusareas the 17-70 is not realy faster,only the complete drive from close to endless is much faster,because has a shorte way to drive.

Good point

sure,the 50-135 is not the fastest,but fast enough for most action i capture.
next lens generations on new cameras are much faster

As the owner of the 70-200 L f2.8 MKII I can say 3 of my pentax lenses focus ( infinity to close and back, full rack ) faster than it, it's fast but not as fast as my DA 70, 16-45 or 40mm limited.

thanks for the input

I meant that focusing in LV is much easier than before. On my K20D I could zoom in on the subject, but it was a pixelated mess. On the K-7 the magnified portion shows much more details, so it's easier to focus.

For checking focus, especially on a tripod, I can see how LV could come in really handy

I'm quite happy without FF. APS-C gives me reach with smaller glass, and if I need to go really wide, there's now the Sigma 8-16 (fab lens).

The high ISO and DR advantages of today's D700 will be matched by sub $1K APS-C cameras in 2 years. After that, it's just the pros and the willy-measuring amateurs who will care.

K-5 sounds fab.

The Sigma does sound to be a fascinating lens, hadn't read about it till now

You may be right. Especially if new APS-C cameras also come with better viewfinders.
And for those who don't want compromises, why choose the 24x36 compromise? There will be larger-than FF available (since the 645D appears to become a success, it's reasonable to expect more models and also less expensive models in the years to come).

The VF in the medium format cams should be outstanding for sure

...and apart from the D700, most don't have dramatically better high ISO performance than, say, the K-x. Certainly the Sony A850/A900 sensor, cropped down to APS levels, will not give particularly special results.

Yes, the D700 is still the lure in FF land

I'm disappointed in my K7 for night use. I can't shake the hot pixels with long exposures. Long being over 30 seconds. Tried again tonight in 75 degree temps and still getting them after pixel mapping. I may have a dud sensor. If the K5 does not make headway for this type of shooting I'll have to switch brands.

For Astro, CCD sensor is the way to go. And always has been. Get a cheap K200 or K10. Some advanced users even add liquid nitrogen, to cool the sensor at long exposures
Are you stationed in Afghanistan ?

Regarding noise on long exposures, my K20D is about the same as my EOS 7D for long exposures - I'm talking several minutes which I do a lot of. I don't find my Canon body gives me any advantage in this respect.

Thanks for your info

[Jonson PL]

I also wouldn't mind FF, but I ask myself repeatedly "would it make a huge difference in what I get out of the camera?" - low-light, I'm managing well; noise, I rarely shoot above ISO 1600; AF-speed, I'm not missing a great deal on the K20D, let alone what a K-7 would do for me...
In the end, all I'm seeing is wants, not needs...

Well put

The rumored 16Mp Sony sensor do pretty well i RAW. Iso 6400:

New A55/ A580 sensor a winner at high ISO, see RAW..: Sony DSLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

You're right. The 16 MP Sony, seems to do as the Eos 7D. But I don't find any of them good looking Iso 6400.
But if it indicates Iso 3200 to be fine, then that is of cause useful.

I doubt this if comparing at similar "print size" and not looking at pixel level.

Edit; I mean if corrected for ½ stop gain when removing mirror in a55

Good point

4. See this link for 7D long exposures: How does the 7D handle LONG exposures? Pentax comparison...: Canon EOS 7D / 50D - 10D Forum: Digital Photography Review

All I want is a K5 with the noise and DFS issue fixed!

Wow, beautiful shots from this José Ramos

The problem is with Pentax: they're listening to us.
We made a lot of noise about the K10D/K20D being big. So, they made a smaller body (unfortunately, some buttons had to go). Now, it's not good - not good at all...
By some strange logic, we'll downplay every advancement they're making, while amplifying every "fault". We "know" the K-7 is just a K20D, which is exactly the same as the K10D, which is just an *istD on steroids. In other words, the "K-5" - subject of this thread - is just an *istD on steroids; nope, not much of an upgrade...
It's hard being Pentax...

P.S. If someone from Pentax is reading this: keep up the good work! And... you don't have to listen to everything we say

How very true

Thank you much Agnostic.
Mmm iso6400 fom K-7 isn't as bad as I thought. I have one, but never use 6400. That means only emergency shots though.

Indeed the difference is significant. I notice the right hand of the model looks wrong to me but it may be Jpeg artifact (hope it is) or Sony's usually bad rendering.

Can't wait to get my hands on a K-5 (Droooool)

Yeah, if that is Iso 6400 then it looks pretty ok

[Nass]

If it allows DFS to be switched off completely anytime I want it'll be worth it to me.

[Kunzite]

Yes, I also hope a new sensor would drastically improve night/long exposure image quality (being able to switch off the DFS should come with this)
I'm moderately optimistic about the new cameras

[opiedog]

Funny post. Simply ridiculous opinion of single-minded Pentax fan...

I didn't notice it for the last years...Hoya makes what they want and what they need and they can.

Pentax had made small bodies for the long time before. They simply return to the tradition. And nothing else.

K-7 and K-x were made by Japanese engineers for Japanese hands first of all.
If they listen to us, they should offer not colourful K-x, but new EVIL system with WR and FF instead of top APS-C, new fast and silent and solid SDM and outstanding AF system. We need more fast primes instead of slow DA35/2.8.
No lenses roadmap for 1.5 year.

Between DA21 and FA31 (very expensive, by the way, and made in Vietnam now) is the HOLE.
Between DFA100 and DA200 is the HOLE. and e.t.c.
No cheap DA50/1.7, no FA35/2 (why???). No 135 mm lens. No 85 mm lens.
No 28-30 mm lenses. No non-expensive portrait lens - like 85/2 from Sony.
No anything longer 300 mm and no TC. No new flashes. e.t.c. e.t.c.

Photokina will give us the end answer to where Hoya goes...

Pentax is DOOMED! until photokina at least

[pentaxmz]

Yes, I also hope a new sensor would drastically improve night/long exposure image quality (being able to switch off the DFS should come with this)
I'm moderately optimistic about the new cameras

Yes, I agree.... even I am willing to put up with noise and hot pixels if I can just turn off the #$%^ DFS!

Before my 5D, I was missing a lot of shots because of the K20D's forced DFS. Worse yet, my pleas to Pentax and their replies very clearly indicated that they did not understand and/or did not care. Being a relatively loyal Pentax user since the days of the K1000, I was really pissed off by this attitude.

I know there are (unfortunately) a lot of haters of 'other' brands, but you will never see that kind of attitude from C and N support. In fact, they have gone to great lengths to accommodate the small community of long exposure enthusiasts.

Having said that, the K 5 is really Pentax's last chance with me. I think I also said that about the K 7, but this time I really mean it, DARN IT!
..... either an improvement with the K 5 or when I have enough money to replace all my Pentax lenses and peripherals. Whichever comes first.

[pentaxmz]

Pentax is DOOMED! until photokina at least

September 21 - 26. I am considering a trip. It fits into my vacation time.

Does anyone have any spare vouchers?

Sadly but not unexpected, I noticed that Canon and Nikon's spaces dwarf the Pentax stand. How does Pentax compete against these goliaths?

[Kunzite]

Well, last time they had a very tasty strawberry cocktail

[lurchlarson]

September 21 - 26. I am considering a trip. It fits into my vacation time.

Does anyone have any spare vouchers?

Sadly but not unexpected, I noticed that Canon and Nikon's spaces dwarf the Pentax stand. How does Pentax compete against these goliaths?

Laboriously.

[Nass]

Yes, I agree.... even I am willing to put up with noise and hot pixels if I can just turn off the #$%^ DFS!

Big ditto. But then when I see the price and realise I can't afford it (having just had the K-7 "I'm the successor to the LX") last year, I'll probably have to throw a mini-sulk at Pentax for a while until I can.

[deejjjaaaa]

This resolution doubling sounds pretty interesting, I'd like to know how it works. I can see it reducing noise, but doubling the resolution?

Super-resolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[deejjjaaaa]

P.S: photoacute only has two lenses optimized for K-7 for resolution/lens correction, but I guess it would be fine for merging RAW without lens/camera optimization.

you can submit your own data for profiling and get a free license... I profiled Kx + FA35/2 and Sigma DP2 for them in ~couple of hours some time ago and received a free license after their verified that results are good... w/ so many Pentax combos unprofiled there are many free licenses to get.

[ogl]

I also hope a new sensor would drastically improve night/long exposure image quality

"photographie" (french) is from ancient Greek
φως / φωτος — light and γραφω — write;

Photography = technique of light drawing/writing.

No light, no Photography.

A lot of fans of clean high ISO at APS-C sensors is the result of aggressive marketing of Canon/Nikon.

Good high ISO is trickery for masses and manipulation with sensor technology.
Smaller pixels can't get more light.

More square of sensor = more light. It's nude fact