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08-28-2010, 01:30 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lazar Quote
The whole anti-mirrorless thing is a bit like the arrival of digital cameras: back then lots of people were screaming "never" or "no digital for me", but a few years later...
SLR's will cease to exist in a few years. The old idea was and is great, but there's no substitute for the ability to see EXACTLY what you'll get, including bokeh, sharpness and DOF. This is impossible with the old SLR system: the ground glass screen never shows how the photo will look like after exposure.

Of course, the old system does not consume power, but the advantage of WYSIWYG far outweighs that in most shooting conditions.

08-28-2010, 03:22 PM   #17
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Mirrorless is just not good enough yet.
08-28-2010, 08:35 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote

Of course, the old system does not consume power, but the advantage of WYSIWYG far outweighs that in most shooting conditions.
Power consumption and power supply are two areas where I expect big improvements to occur in the next couple years.

No, mirrorless isn't quite good enough (to fully supplant traditional SLRs)... yet. "Yet" is the important part. I think the improvements may come sooner than people expect.
08-29-2010, 03:17 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lazar Quote
The whole anti-mirrorless thing
In fact, there is a quite noisy anti-mirrored (reflex) movement. Such people are waiting/wishing for the complete disappearance of the optical viewfinders, thinking that the only proper way to look at the surrounding world is through an LCD. Would they embrace a remote-controlled camera? This way, even being on the location would be optional.
Us? We just want to keep our reflex viewfinders

er1kksen, take a look at the "revolutionary" A55 SLT

08-29-2010, 05:22 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote

er1kksen, take a look at the "revolutionary" A55 SLT
Oh, I have, and I quite like what I see. If they sort out a few things in the next model in its line (allow uninterrupted viewing during burst shooting, provide better video controls, give it a decent battery, and use the superb Epson EVF tech that Sony now owns) it'd be an incredible camera, rather than "just" a revolutionary camera. To the average user, ovf reflex cameras would have little meaningful advantage over this type of EVF camera, while the advantages of the SLT design (potentially) are pretty numerous.

To be honest, these same sorts of pellicle-mirror designs have been floating around my head for years and I was extremely pleased to see them finally appearing in the form of actual cameras. I have a few ideas on how the technology could be taken even further, including a design that uses both EVF and OVF that you might prefer, but those might be less likely to eventually appear. By the time we get there mirrorless cameras may have most of the market and be sufficiently advanced to make both SLR and SLT designs functionally obselete.
08-29-2010, 05:50 AM   #21
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Yeah, but we were talking about "power consumption and power supply"
Just over 300 frames for one battery charge - and proprietary, expensive batteries (difficult to replicate by 3rd-party makers). And that's typical for an electronic viewfinder camera...
A typical DSLR can easily get more than double.
08-29-2010, 11:15 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
In fact, there is a quite noisy anti-mirrored (reflex) movement. Such people are waiting/wishing for the complete disappearance of the optical viewfinders, thinking that the only proper way to look at the surrounding world is through an LCD. Would they embrace a remote-controlled camera? This way, even being on the location would be optional.
Us? We just want to keep our reflex viewfinders

er1kksen, take a look at the "revolutionary" A55 SLT
such movement could probably had not used an OVF enough to know it's advantages over LCD. I would assume most of the members there are young that wants to be pampered with their gear rather than them working it with their gear. although I admit that the removal of the mirror would be a huge benefit for the shooter, I wouldn't want the OVF to be completely eliminated but rather modified for maximum efficiency. some EVF however did impress me however, so let's see where it goes from there and if they could improve it further.
oh and the A55 does look promising, it's too bad it ain't Pentax.
08-29-2010, 12:38 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
I was quite underwhelmed by their NX10 camera. my complaints with NX10 are the EVF, LV are smaller and dark than what I would had wanted.
The Samsung NX10 EVF is the same size as the K10/20D's OVF. Samsung decided to not ramp up the display (like Olympus and Panasonic do) meaning that what-you-see-is-what-you-get, so if the image is dark in the EVF, the photo will be too.

Personally, I wish this would be a setting on EVF cameras; sometimes you want it to ramp up in low light, but in normal light you usually don't.

...

08-29-2010, 12:54 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Yeah, but we were talking about "power consumption and power supply"
Just over 300 frames for one battery charge - and proprietary, expensive batteries (difficult to replicate by 3rd-party makers). And that's typical for an electronic viewfinder camera...
A typical DSLR can easily get more than double.
As noted, that's one of the major things that need to be improved for mirrorless (or SLT) cameras to really reach their potential. Obviously, since both designs are in constant live view, they require more power, but the mirrorless/SLT cameras on the market so far have been supplied with rather anemic batteries. In cameras like the PENs or NEXs it's understandable that a smaller battery is the price to pay for their drastic size reduction, but on cameras like the GH1 or A55 it's really baffling that they've gone with such small, weak batteries. I mean, the A55 shares the same battery as the NEX series. It would have been so much better served by one of the larger batteries used by other Sony DSLRs, and it has space in the handgrip.

But again, these are only problems so long as manufacturers figure they can get away with cheaping out on that particular area. Sooner or later someone will introduce a mirrorless camera with DSLR-matching battery life (or better), and then the other makers will have to step up their game.
08-29-2010, 07:50 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Miserere Quote
The Samsung NX10 EVF is the same size as the K10/20D's OVF. Samsung decided to not ramp up the display (like Olympus and Panasonic do) meaning that what-you-see-is-what-you-get, so if the image is dark in the EVF, the photo will be too.

Personally, I wish this would be a setting on EVF cameras; sometimes you want it to ramp up in low light, but in normal light you usually don't.

...
it's true it's the same size as the K10/20D, but not as quite as efficient or accurate as the OVF. focus is not that easy with the NX10 when I handled it first hand. later I discovered in the reviews that they had the same observations I have.

Last edited by Pentaxor; 08-30-2010 at 03:16 AM.
08-29-2010, 09:13 PM   #26
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Rumors of the demise of the SLR are premature. An EVF pales in comparison to a real viewfinder, especially in low light - noise becomes horrendous in that case. EVFs still have a long way to go before they become competitive with with pentaprism viewfinders. The SLR has survived basically unchanged for decades because it works very well.
08-29-2010, 11:15 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zarkon Quote
An EVF pales in comparison to a real viewfinder, especially in low light - noise becomes horrendous in that case. .
That's a common fallacy by people who have never used a mirrorless camera in low light.
When the light is almost DARK, you see almost nothing in an OVF, while with an EVF or LCD on a mirrorless camera, you can at least see something, even if it is grainy.

Notice how much brighter the image is on the LCD? See the coat stand just to the right of center? You can see it on the EVF, but you can't see it at all without it. This demonstrates that the EVF/LCD produces a much brighter REFERENCE for framing and focusing(for example manual focusing), than an OVF with the same lighting conditions.



Now I'm NOT saying that the EVF is superior to an OVF in normal light, but it's still pretty good. But in LOW light, it produces a grainy but brighter image than an OVF. So the " LCD/EVF is bad in low light" story told by people who have never used a micro 4/3 camera in low light is total nonsense...
08-30-2010, 03:02 AM   #28
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Whoever does does marketing hype for Samsung should be fired.
Lots of cheap talk, boring, corny phrases. They're worse than even Sony or Microsoft, who are kings of empty talk.
Bring us something new, and that new will be better than boring phrases worth nothing. If it's good, it will speak for itself.
08-30-2010, 04:50 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
it's true it's the same size as the K10/20D, but not as quite as efficient or accurate as the OVF.
I don't know what you mean by accurate, but it's 100% coverage, which is more than I can say for my K10D's OVF

QuoteQuote:
focus is not that easy with the NX10 when I handled it first hand. later I discovered in the reviews that they had the same observations I have.
My experience is exactly the opposite, I find it a lot easier to manually focus on the NX10 than on the K10D, especially in low light. What's more, because there is no dependence on the mirror angle to achieve correct focus with very fast lenses, I've been able to use my 50mm f/1.2 again, and with much greater accuracy than with the K10D. Other manual focus lenses I've played around with to great effect: FA 77 Ltd, Vivitar 135mm f/2.3 and Sigma CAT 600mm f/8.

Could you point me to reviews where they complain about manual focusing with the NX10?

...
08-30-2010, 04:52 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by dnas Quote
When the light is almost DARK, you see almost nothing in an OVF, while with an EVF or LCD on a mirrorless camera, you can at least see something, even if it is grainy.
Absolutely. And if you're focusing manually, you simply turn the focus ring until the grain is in focus, and voilą, you have an in-focus picture in low light

...
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