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08-27-2010, 11:12 AM   #1
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EVIL Camera at Photokina for Pentax ?

Waiting for the rumors to fly about a mirror less Pentax camera like Sony's Nex5.

Articulating screen, small footprint, APS-C sensor, and use Pentax lenses.

I thought this camera was on the table to be announced, am I wrong ?


wll

08-27-2010, 11:58 AM   #2
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Did you read about this on k-rumors.com?

If you did, it's not a "real" rumor - the mock-up they posted was based on a hypothetical design originally posted in these forums.
08-27-2010, 12:13 PM   #3
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Correct me if I am wrong please, but EVIL cameras suffer from slow contrast detect AF, and the EVF is not well suited to manual focusing - a major drawback should legacy lenses be supported (a major selling point of Pentax IL cameras). To me, based on this, EVIL would not be a good direction for Pentax to pursue.

I doubt (and hope I am right) an EVIL announcement at Pho'kina.
08-27-2010, 02:22 PM   #4
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This subject has been beaten to death on here. I started an EVIL thread myself 2 years ago saying Pentax should build an EVIL because I thought then, just like I do now, that EVIL's will engulf all but the high end of the DSLR market. Only difference now is Panasonic, Olympus, and Sony are starting to show that prediction was sound (at least in Japan). It's a shame Pentax has the foresight of your average Opossum.

As far as the comment about manual focus with an EVF...nothing could be further from the truth. It is ridiculously easy to manual focus with a 7x magnification view through an EVF. In fact for me it's even easier than using 1970's/1980's era manual focus SLR's. You really can be extremely precise.

08-27-2010, 02:29 PM   #5
wll
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I read it somewhere where they had one in the works, unless I miss understood ?, could be !

wll
08-27-2010, 02:45 PM   #6
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Yes, there's one "in the works". We will likely learn more next month.

The horse is not dead but certainly does not need another beating. It's unresponsive and very sore.

Please, can we just stop this for now??
08-27-2010, 03:05 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by jon.partsch Quote
To me, based on this, EVIL would not be a good direction for Pentax to pursue.

I doubt (and hope I am right) an EVIL announcement at Pho'kina.
Couldn't agree more. There's already plenty of these things in or coming to market, and there's little point in Pentax jumping in after everyone else. Particularly when adapters will allow Pentax lenses to be used on all the others anyway, which strips the primary reason for anyone to buy the Pentax version in favor of another brand's version, in contrast to SLRs.

QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
This subject has been beaten to death on here. I started an EVIL thread myself 2 years ago saying Pentax should build an EVIL because I thought then, just like I do now, that EVIL's will engulf all but the high end of the DSLR market. Only difference now is Panasonic, Olympus, and Sony are starting to show that prediction was sound (at least in Japan). It's a shame Pentax has the foresight of your average Opossum.

As far as the comment about manual focus with an EVF...nothing could be further from the truth. It is ridiculously easy to manual focus with a 7x magnification view through an EVF. In fact for me it's even easier than using 1970's/1980's era manual focus SLR's. You really can be extremely precise.
I wouldn't want to stick my eye within a few mm of an EVF with any frequency or for any period of time - talk about eye strain! Using a 7X magnification view to attain focus also doesn't work too well for anything that isn't holding still for you, since composition (and therefore, focus) changes constantly with moving subjects. Use of the rear screen in bright sunlight is fruitless as well. If it has an APS-C sensor and/or if you're using dSLR lenses on it, you're basically mounting lenses that resemble a soup can onto a camera that resembles a pack of cigarettes, PLUS you have to separate them with a chunky adapter due to the K-mount register distance, not exactly an eloquent package. Please don't bother providing me with contrary examples (i.e., the inevitable "pancake prime" example), as such situations are not exactly the norm nor are such lenses going to provide much variety of tools if you confine your collection to such lenses. These EVIL things (pun intended) are a fad and will not significantly displace dSLRs, particularly for "enthusiasts."
08-27-2010, 03:33 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
As far as the comment about manual focus with an EVF...nothing could be further from the truth. It is ridiculously easy to manual focus with a 7x magnification view through an EVF.
That's exactly the problem!! I can live-view manual focus on a DSLR now, but I don't (except for rarely with doing macros, still life or astro with an equatorial mount) because it's so d@mn slow and you can't compose at the same time. There is a real reason why most of us don't live-view focus manually with our DSLRs; it's because it's extremely inconvenient when you have an optical VF to use instead.

08-28-2010, 02:30 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
These EVIL things (pun intended) are a fad and will not significantly displace dSLRs, particularly for "enthusiasts."
The jury is still out but at the moment but I tend to see these mirrorless cameras not as a fad but as something secondary. Unless someone can come out with a f/2.8 zoom that will not have the "pack of cigarette/can" look. A lot of enthusiasts will still prefer the superior performance and handling of a DSLR but it's quite possible to add a mirrorless system as a secondary system for some advantages they provide.
08-28-2010, 02:39 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
The jury is still out but at the moment but I tend to see these mirrorless cameras not as a fad but as something secondary. Unless someone can come out with a f/2.8 zoom that will not have the "pack of cigarette/can" look. A lot of enthusiasts will still prefer the superior performance and handling of a DSLR but it's quite possible to add a mirrorless system as a secondary system for some advantages they provide.
You're being far too reasonable. How are we going to have another EVIL flamefest after this post?
08-28-2010, 07:43 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by jon.partsch Quote
That's exactly the problem!! I can live-view manual focus on a DSLR now, but I don't (except for rarely with doing macros, still life or astro with an equatorial mount) because it's so d@mn slow and you can't compose at the same time. There is a real reason why most of us don't live-view focus manually with our DSLRs; it's because it's extremely inconvenient when you have an optical VF to use instead.
The manual focussing system on Sony's NEX cameras addresses some of these issues and is very fast and accurate. Just as an FYI.

NEX-5+Voigtlander M mount lenses+tilt-able screen = perfect little travel camera.
08-28-2010, 06:07 PM   #12
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On Focusing Manually

On MILCs (Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Cameras) with an EVF, manual focusing is easier than with an optical VF because the whole screen works akin to the annular micro-prism sections in old manual focus SLRs. This is true even if you're not using the magnified image, which as was rightly pointed out is mostly useful for stationary subjects (but I've successfully used 2x magnification with people walking in the street).

On Autofocusing

Contrast detect AF used to be slow, and still might be slow on cameras where it's an afterthought. On the Panny G2 and Sammy NX10 it's very fast; on the Olympus Pen with the latest firmware it's also very good. It's only going to get better with every passing generation.

On Why MILCs Are Here to Stay

Initially these cameras will be sold as 2nd cameras "for when the DSLR is too heavy/big", but camera brands will eventually start pushing them as main cameras once they have a solid lens line-up and have sold enough as "2nd camera" and want to start making money from people buying them as their 1st camera. Why do I say this? Compare a Panasonic G2 with a Pentax LX; they are very similar in size (although the LX is a bit thicker at the mount). That's how SLRs used to be for decades. These huge DSLRs we have now are a leftover from the introduction of autofocus in film cameras, when batteries were huge, as were AF motors.

MILCs aren't really an evolution, they are simply a way to get cameras back to the size they used to be. Nobody was complaining that the Pentax LX or Nikon F2 or Olympus OM-1 were too small; in fact, camera brands back then were trying to out-small each other.

Furthermore, MILCs are cheaper to make than DSLRs, which means higher profit margins for the camera companies. These companies aren't in place to provide you with a camera, they're here to provide their investors with the highest possible earnings, and MILCs will provide that.

On Why Pentax Should Have One

It's true that I can use my Pentax lenses on any camera, but if Pentax did like Sony and produced an adapter that offered auto aperture and transmitted lens info to the body, there would be a huge benefit and advantage to using a Pentax MILC. Not that I would use that many FA/DA lenses with it, because Pentax would provide a great range of small primes for it. And that is something Pentax can excel at. Now imagine they make it weather-proof, it immediately sets them apart from the pack.

On Why It's Not Too Late

Someone said it was too late because Olympus, Sony and Panasonic already have theirs. And so does Samsung, but it's not too late to bring out a serious MILC. Currently, the most serious of the lot is the Panny G2, but it has a 4/3 sensor; after that I would place the Samsung NX10 (APS-C), which has ergonomics reminiscent of Pentax, and is only let down by its simple firmware. If Pentax released something like the NX10 but with Pentax K-x firmware (and sensor!), it would be a killer camera.

In 2 or 3 years time it will be too late, because MILCs will be the highest selling segment of all cameras (as I expect P&S to have been made obsolete by cameraphones), so whoever doesn't have a MILC line will be suffering financial difficulties.

Don't Hate the Player, Hate the Game

I know a lot of people around here hate MILCs, but there's no need to feel intimidated. Pentax will continue to produce cameras like the K-7, but entry-level DSLRs will slowly be phased out by the new-mount MILC. What might happen is that the K-x segment will keep the K mount but go mirrorless, in parallel with the MILC line.

DSLRs have peaked and there's little new; people aren't upgrading like they used to. Even in Canon land there are still many shooters with 20D's and 30D's that are sticking with them. Camera companies need something new to incite sales, and nothing does that like a new system. The camera business needs MILCs to survive.

...
08-28-2010, 06:13 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
Couldn't agree more. There's already plenty of these things in or coming to market, and there's little point in Pentax jumping in after everyone else. Particularly when adapters will allow Pentax lenses to be used on all the others anyway, which strips the primary reason for anyone to buy the Pentax version in favor of another brand's version, in contrast to SLRs.
So you want their market share to shrink even more?

Camera manufacturers cannot offer monoline products based on the needs of a few users. That's a route to bankruptcy.

Last edited by Aristophanes; 08-28-2010 at 08:28 PM.
08-28-2010, 06:36 PM   #14
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"I wouldn't want to stick my eye within a few mm of an EV....


Wow now there's a great reason why Pentax shouldn't make a mirrorless camera. Thanks for the laughs!!! Have you ever just considered buying a 5D MkII? It might lower your blood pressure.
08-28-2010, 06:51 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
So ou want their market share to shrink even more?

Camera manufacturers cannot offer monoline products based on the needs of a few users. That's a route to bankruptcy.
Exactly. Hopefully Pentax will be able to offer mirrorless, ASP-C and full frame. I say this assuming that something like the 645D will at least for the foreseeable future have somewhat of a specialized user base. I only use the EVF on my E-P2 and it's incredibly easy to manual focus. The problem is some people can only see a product one way. I didn't buy it because it would "fit in my pocket" Seriously, very few P/S shoot cameras will actually really fit in someone's pocket. I bought it because it was a beautifully designed, highly functional, and yes very small camera. I like small cameras which is why I would never be interested in something as large as the full frame offerings from Canon and Nikon. But heck I know a lot of Pentax users want one so I really hope they make one. Better for Pentax is better for me since I happen to actually like the ASP-C format. Funny if you look at all the mirrorless cameras they basically now look like DSLR's with the exception of the E-P's. I don't auto focus so I don't really need that function, so the E-P2 has worked out really well for me. Now if someone besides Leica would make a digital rangefinder I'd be all over it. I have an M3 but I got it second hand.
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