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09-15-2010, 07:46 AM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Right, and consumer demand is for taking photos in the darkwithout flash. It's still surprising to me that no one makes a camera for landscape shooters with a range like ISO 25-1600.
The thing is the gain of quality will be minimal. At ISO 100/200 most APS-C cameras deliver great results. It's at high ISO that the big gains are still to be made. Look at the Sony A850/A900 that are superb landscape machines, probably the best of their kind except maybe for the D3x, and how much bashing they get for having sub-par high ISO performance.

What would be great though is to be able to change the sensor on the fly like we do with lenses. A sensor optimized for high ISO, one for very high resolution, one for B&W, etc, etc. It may not be feasible or manufacturers don't want to think outside the box...

09-15-2010, 08:39 AM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
What would be great though is to be able to change the sensor on the fly like we do with lenses. A sensor optimized for high ISO, one for very high resolution, one for B&W, etc, etc. It may not be feasible or manufacturers don't want to think outside the box...
Ricoh has a camera like this. The sensor and lens are one module. It's a gutsy move, not a joe consumer product at all.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricohgxrs10/

Last edited by audiobomber; 09-15-2010 at 08:47 AM.
09-15-2010, 08:52 AM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Ricoh has a camera like this.
Not really, the lens is coupled to the sensor. A really bad move in the age of quickly deprecating electronics. Imagine your Takumar coupled with a 0.4MP sensor, great optics, useless sensor.
09-15-2010, 10:59 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
The thing is the gain of quality will be minimal.
Although it could be useful if you want to combine a wide aperture with a slowish shutter speed in bright daylight. In other words, as an alternative to a neutral filter.

09-15-2010, 12:02 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by Brangdon Quote
Although it could be useful if you want to combine a wide aperture with a slowish shutter speed in bright daylight. In other words, as an alternative to a neutral filter.
The issue is that as you extend ISO sensitivity below the native (base) sensitivity of the sensor, you decrease dynamic range. This is because what the camera is actually doing is overexposing at the native sensitivity, and then pulling the exposure. Highlights that were clipped in the actual exposure can't be restored when you pull the exposure back down, so you lose dynamic range in the highlights. For each stop you go below the native sensitivity, you lose one stop of dynamic range in the final exposure.

That's why when you enable highlight correction in the K-7 or K-x, for example, they prevents use of sensitivities below the camera's native ISO sensitivity.

There *is* a way around this limitation, but it involves capturing multiple exposures, and hence can cause issues with moving subjects. The trick is to capture multiple correctly exposed shots at your native sensitivity, then average and pull them. Kodak used this technique in a couple of its (long discontinued) digital SLRs to offer effective sensitivities as low as ISO 6. The camera would capture a series of exposures, wrapped in a pair of dark frame exposures (because the temperature of the sensor could change between the first and last exposure, causing dark current noise to vary).

Of course, both techniques can also be achieved using a computer, and with much more control over the process -- so if you want to simulate either method, you can do so with your camera already.
09-15-2010, 01:36 PM   #81
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The simplest and most effective method continues to be a decent ND filter. Spend $800 upgrading to a camera that shoots ISO 25 but looks awful at 1600, or stick with your camera that looks fine at 1600 and spend $70 on a decent ND filter? Seems like a no-brainer to me.
09-15-2010, 02:40 PM   #82
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Ragazzi qualcuno ha idea di quanto verrà la k-r-?
Con tutto quello che è stato detto deve essere una bella macchina.
09-15-2010, 07:17 PM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
The simplest and most effective method continues to be a decent ND filter. Spend $800 upgrading to a camera that shoots ISO 25 but looks awful at 1600, or stick with your camera that looks fine at 1600 and spend $70 on a decent ND filter? Seems like a no-brainer to me.
Of course you are right, but why in-camera post processing if you can already do that at home on your computer? Add value to camera without increase of cost to manufactor the camera. This to maintain margin & market over time.

QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
What would be great though is to be able to change the sensor on the fly like we do with lenses. A sensor optimized for high ISO, one for very high resolution, one for B&W, etc, etc. It may not be feasible or manufacturers don't want to think outside the box...
I agree and Ricoh's move is IMHO not good. Yes, you can have optimum lens - sensor combinations, but you can't re-use a lens on multiple sensors. Basically they created fixed lens camera's with an additional body to interface with user. The problem is added bulk, increase cost of manufactoring.

A smaller sensor with higher densitiy for tele work, a bigger sensor for glamor portraits.
- The guys making sensor will love this
- The guys making camera's only if their return (margin x market) on selling seperate sensors would be OK...

I don't think this will happen, at least not soon...

09-16-2010, 02:57 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by JoepLX3 Quote
Of course you are right, but why in-camera post processing if you can already do that at home on your computer? Add value to camera without increase of cost to manufactor the camera. This to maintain margin & market over time.
So add an actual, physical internal ND filter (I believe certain Canon compacts did this?) that the camera can swap in and out. That would add value to the camera, albeit at some manufacturing cost. As opposed to crippling the sensor at high ISOs in order to provide ISO 25, which would appeal only to a very small market and likely not return the R&D put into such an unconventional sensor design.
09-16-2010, 06:07 AM   #85
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I agree, only Ricoh could do this...
09-16-2010, 09:04 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
So add an actual, physical internal ND filter (I believe certain Canon compacts did this?)
Not only certain Canon compacts, but also some from Casio, Fujifilm, Nikon, Panasonic, Ricoh, and Sony, quite possibly others too. Can't *remember* an internal ND filter having appeared in a Pentax compact to date, but I wouldn't be terribly surprised if I've missed one.
09-16-2010, 01:17 PM   #87
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A lot of those companies source near-identical compacts from Sanyo, so I wonder if it could have been common to a Sanyo manufacturing design?
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