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09-24-2010, 02:09 PM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by Yassarian Quote
Plus what was the big deal anyway? 5 years ago FF was a big deal because it offers a noticeable improvement in high ISO performance (among some others, but this was the biggie). Now, the newer crop of aps-c sensors are much improved.
The big deal, as I see it, is better viewfinders. Any image quality improvement (other than better DOF control) is gone in a few years at most. But the viewfinders stay the same. (And even FF gives pretty bad viewfinders IMHO, these days. They used to be ok, but then autofocus came and made them worse. The only autofocus camera with a good viewfinder I've tried is the 645N.)

09-24-2010, 02:59 PM   #137
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I tend to disagree with Pentax not having the resources for a FF system. I mean, it doesn't make sense releasing an MF system that costs 4 or 5 times that much of a FF system, not to mention the new MF lens lineup which costs more than your average DA or FA lens setup. or how about investing a few hundred bucks for a FF system over an APS-C system which is close to the pricing of todays FF system. with regards to developing an FF lens line-up, they could re-release or start the production of their old FA line-up. I'm sure they still have those old schematics that they have. not to mention that those old lenses are pretty much capable, not to mention legendary and sought after in today's market, just imagine the demand or the massive influx of those wannabe owners. I don't care much or most of the build of those old lenses are pretty good and had lasted for decades as compared to the ones that are consistently discontinued, redone, refurbished by other brands every few years which sometimes doesn't make much any difference optically or sometimes have slight improvement and sometimes can be worse than it's predecessors. Pentax have the time to draw new build and lens schematics while they are re-selling their discontinued lens lineup back in the market. the A50/1.2 for example is back in the market due to it's popular clamor among users.

the reason that you dont see a lot of clamor for a Pentax FF dlsr is because Pentax never made one eversince it went digital. of course it is logical since it isn't offered, why would you demand something that isnt part of the menu? point is, if or when Pentax will release a FF, I'm sure the demand for it would increase over time due to availability. I think the fear that Pentax might be thinking is if they sell it low, it will cannibalize the sales of their APS-C lineup. there are possible scenarios that Pentax might do to avoid this. sell the camera high while maintaining the price of the FF lens. sell the FF camera low, but increasing the price of the FF lenses. sell both FF camera and FF lenses HIGH. or just dont build a FF.

so what's the big deal with FF system? and what's the point? the point is, HIGH ISO nowadays isn't that biggie anymore due to the recent breakthroutgh and improvement in HIGH ISO capabilities of APS-C sensor. although what makes you think that the FF system can't increase that gap when they release a newer type? I'm still thinking how the APS-C sensor can accommodate larger MP resolution without a compromise with the S/N ratio. e.g. 30MP APS-C versus 30MP FF both with 50k ISO.

High ISO is not the only thing that people look in a FF camera. an important aspect is the VF. compare both VF of an APS-C and FF and you will see that the VF of the FF would be much preferred over the smaller and darker APS-C VF. a much shallow DOF also is one that is wanted in a FF, not that the APS-C cant be shallow, but the FF can give you more of it and much flexible when stopping down. the ability to use a FF lens for it's intended focal length use at it's intended purpose is another concern. a 50mm lens is a 50mm once again. this is why a 50mm became quite a struggle on the APS-C for general use for what it once was. it becomes too long on occasions. that is why a clamor for a fast 35mm came into existence. a fast 35mm is nice, but a fast 50mm focal length is different. so ultimately, the demands for a FF is much of what an APS-C can't do. they could be able to solve the VF dilemma in the future, but still missing the FOV, DOF elements of particular lenses.
09-24-2010, 06:59 PM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by Yassarian Quote
I doubt Pentax has the resource needed to develop a separate line of high quality FF lens.

Plus what was the big deal anyway? 5 years ago FF was a big deal because it offers a noticeable improvement in high ISO performance (among some others, but this was the biggie). Now, the newer crop of aps-c sensors are much improved.

So what really is the big benefit of a full frame nowdays? I think there will always be a small population of people who demand the highest possible definition (re: niche), or a small population of people who likes to take pictures of black jaguars in the jungle, in the middle of a starless moonless night (re: camera testers). But for the vast majority, is there any benefit anymore? Not to mention what would they do with the DA, DA*, DA Limited gears that they currently own?

Really, I don't see the point...
Pentax doesn't need to develop a separate line of high quality FF lenses; they need develop only a high quality FF lens line up, plus one APS-C specific ultra-wide to cover the short end (everything else would work on both).

FF still has better image quality, even the best/latest/newest APS-C sensors don't match the performance of the best FF sensors from 3 years ago. You may be fooled by noise reduction being applied to RAW files, but I'm not. Detail smearing in the red channel is horrid on that new Sony 16 MP sensor you're all excited about all the way down at ISO 400. It's not even close to matching the D3 sensor, not even as good as the D3 at ISO 6400 in that red channel, and that's a three year old sensor. When the next generation of FF sensors comes out, the gap will widen that much more. The constant addition of more and more pixels isn't getting you anything on APS-C but extra file size and additional noise, since most mass-produced lenses can't resolve more than 7 megapixels of actual detail on an APS-C sized sensor anyway, assuming a diffraction-limited lens at f11, which is pretty typical.

Do Sensors “Outresolve” Lenses?

The other thing, of course, is that APS-C viewfinders suck. They always will, because they're starting with a sensor that's less than half the size. Even if image quality was a wash, which it will never be, I'd still want a FF camera over APS-C just for the viewfinder. For a camera maker like Pentax that had its glory days in the manual focus era, and whose excellent backward compatibility allows the use of all that legacy glass, this is a huge issue.

You assume that people are all DA, DA* and DA Limited owners, when in point of fact there are far more Pentax shooters that have none of those lenses and could care less about what will be "done" with them, then there are Pentax shooters with big DA lens collections. Pentax is a bit player today whereas back in manual focus days they sold more SLRs than anyone, along with tons of lenses. Back then, EVERY third party lens was also made in PK mount, unlike the current environment, with third party manufacturers starting to cut K mount from their production due to the paltry (and decreasing) volume they figure they'll sell.

So, Pentax can continue to "bottom feed" with their APS-C only strategy, and will continue to lose their customer base, or they can actually TRY to be competitive and produce their own FF dSLR. They've already done too much foot dragging, and are teetering on the edge of irrelevance at this point. The 645D is not a substitute or an alternative to a FF dSLR, it's just another, different market segment, so it is no "solution" to the gaping hole in the PK dSLR line-up.
09-24-2010, 07:21 PM   #139
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Pentax to me has always been about the serious photographer, "camera's made by photograhers for photographers", I am sure I once read that somewhere. I have always felt proud to own a Pentax for that reason.
Then there is that elusive "Pentax look" to the images and the way Pentax tried to be innovative, "Be different"! Yes, well what has happened to all that?
There is nothing wrong for Pentax to market aps-c for the mass consumers, although without a solid point of differenece they will alway struggle for market share. However I believe that Pentax should really be chasing the pro and semi pro shooters. They have the high end covered (645D) and the entry/mid level (Kr/K5).
But now there is a huge gap and that's where I sit, waiting patiently but for how much longer?

09-24-2010, 07:23 PM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
Pentax doesn't need to develop a separate line of high quality FF lenses; they need develop only a high quality FF lens line up, plus one APS-C specific ultra-wide to cover the short end (everything else would work on both).

FF still has better image quality, even the best/latest/newest APS-C sensors don't match the performance of the best FF sensors from 3 years ago. You may be fooled by noise reduction being applied to RAW files, but I'm not. Detail smearing in the red channel is horrid on that new Sony 16 MP sensor you're all excited about all the way down at ISO 400. It's not even close to matching the D3 sensor, not even as good as the D3 at ISO 6400 in that red channel, and that's a three year old sensor. When the next generation of FF sensors comes out, the gap will widen that much more. The constant addition of more and more pixels isn't getting you anything on APS-C but extra file size and additional noise, since most mass-produced lenses can't resolve more than 7 megapixels of actual detail on an APS-C sized sensor anyway, assuming a diffraction-limited lens at f11, which is pretty typical.

Do Sensors “Outresolve” Lenses?

The other thing, of course, is that APS-C viewfinders suck. They always will, because they're starting with a sensor that's less than half the size. Even if image quality was a wash, which it will never be, I'd still want a FF camera over APS-C just for the viewfinder. For a camera maker like Pentax that had its glory days in the manual focus era, and whose excellent backward compatibility allows the use of all that legacy glass, this is a huge issue.

You assume that people are all DA, DA* and DA Limited owners, when in point of fact there are far more Pentax shooters that have none of those lenses and could care less about what will be "done" with them, then there are Pentax shooters with big DA lens collections. Pentax is a bit player today whereas back in manual focus days they sold more SLRs than anyone, along with tons of lenses. Back then, EVERY third party lens was also made in PK mount, unlike the current environment, with third party manufacturers starting to cut K mount from their production due to the paltry (and decreasing) volume they figure they'll sell.

So, Pentax can continue to "bottom feed" with their APS-C only strategy, and will continue to lose their customer base, or they can actually TRY to be competitive and produce their own FF dSLR. They've already done too much foot dragging, and are teetering on the edge of irrelevance at this point. The 645D is not a substitute or an alternative to a FF dSLR, it's just another, different market segment, so it is no "solution" to the gaping hole in the PK dSLR line-up.

Your pretty militant in your views and I respect that. Have you thought of been more proactive by snail-mailing nasty threatening letters to Pentax? or even sending Pentax execs severed pigs heads etc? it could be quite effective.
09-24-2010, 07:30 PM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christopher M.W.T Quote
Your pretty militant in your views and I respect that. Have you thought of been more proactive by snail-mailing nasty threatening letters to Pentax? or even sending Pentax execs severed pigs heads etc? it could be quite effective.
Nah, I just figured you guys need a voice of realism around here once in a while.
09-24-2010, 07:37 PM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
Nah, I just figured you guys need a voice of realism around here once in a while.
And you need a warped trouble maker to balance it out

If a severed pigs head doesn't work, a severed horses head maybe?


Or maybe you can get your local congressman or woman to take it up with the Japanese government....after all they owe America big time still :P hahaha
09-24-2010, 07:57 PM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by ozlizard Quote
Pentax to me has always been about the serious photographer, "camera's made by photograhers for photographers", I am sure I once read that somewhere. I have always felt proud to own a Pentax for that reason.
Then there is that elusive "Pentax look" to the images and the way Pentax tried to be innovative, "Be different"! Yes, well what has happened to all that?
There is nothing wrong for Pentax to market aps-c for the mass consumers, although without a solid point of differenece they will alway struggle for market share. However I believe that Pentax should really be chasing the pro and semi pro shooters. They have the high end covered (645D) and the entry/mid level (Kr/K5).
But now there is a huge gap and that's where I sit, waiting patiently but for how much longer?
I got mine set June on 2011 or Photokina 2011. before I invest on a FF body, which would mean I have to sell some of my existing Pentax lenses.

09-24-2010, 08:31 PM   #144
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A lot of people summed up reasons for full frame nicely. I'll just take some of those and add some point of view.

- I like 35mm Pentax glass. I want to do more with it.

- Having two tools to use with my existing lenses. I prefer using prime lenses, but if I go to events or something similar, having two bodies is actually a pretty convenient way to get two nice focal lengths which can cover most situations. Having an APS-C and FF body would mean the majority of my lenses would be more versatile. The K-7 is small and powerful. I would assume a Pentax FF would be similar. Two small bodies and two primes lenses is quite manageable when needed. Saves a lot of hassle too.

- Better viewfinder. I use glasses, but the K-7 (which is said to be one of the top APS-C) still feels a bit small and is still difficult to "take everything in" before pressing the shutter. Full frame Pentax would help.

- There are still quite a few capable lenses in the Pentax lineup that would be adequate if not good or excellent on a full frame digital camera (I actually like some vignetting in photos too). Actually, the majority of my lenses would work with a full frame camera and I've even made sure (thanks to users on this forum doing tests) that my last few purchases will work okay with full frame. The last three were DA 40mm LTD, D-FA 100mm WR Macro, and the DA* 300mm F4.

- Manual focus would be easier with the larger viewfinder.
09-24-2010, 08:53 PM   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxor Quote
I got mine set June on 2011 or Photokina 2011. before I invest on a FF body, which would mean I have to sell some of my existing Pentax lenses.
The next Photokina is in 2012.

Looks like you will be making your move in June.
09-24-2010, 10:11 PM   #146
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QuoteOriginally posted by KungPOW Quote
The next Photokina is in 2012.

Looks like you will be making your move in June.
thanks for that.

I'll be making my move, atleast for Fullframe. boy, I think I'm going to miss some of those FF lenses that I have and sell them. possibly those with focal lengths that would be used mainly for the FF. it's kinda sad, really.
09-25-2010, 12:52 AM   #147
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As we already have the 645D, anything besides APS like FF or EVIL will severely imits the possibilities of Pentax to do much more for APS DSLR.

Ofcourse now that the 645D will be release world wide, one of the top priorities is to have more lenses for it so one way or the other, already less resource for other projects.

Now, if you are looking at all posts, more people are concerned about what has yet to be done to the APS dslr than demands of FF or even EVIL.
There is still a lot to be done in APS dslr/land.
09-25-2010, 04:41 AM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by ozlizard Quote
Well it seems that Pentax has a good relationship with Sony at the moment so maybe, now that we have the K5, 645D and Kr out of the way, we could see a Pentax full frame dslr using the Sony A900/859 sensor?

Announced this year, released 2011?
(my fingers are crossed)
The managers from stand of Pentax say that no any FF in the next 2 years. No any plans. No new FF lenses to make. "Buy 645D!!!".
09-25-2010, 05:12 AM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
The managers from stand of Pentax say that no any FF in the next 2 years. No any plans. No new FF lenses to make. "Buy 645D!!!".
Well that's about it then.

Option 1; win lotto buy 645D +12,000-$14,000

Option 2: buy Sony A850 + CZ lenses $4000-$5000

Option 3: buy Canon 5D MK2 + L lenses $3500-5000

Option 4: wait 2+ years...mmmmm don't think so.
09-25-2010, 05:30 AM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by ozlizard Quote
Well that's about it then.

Option 1; win lotto buy 645D +12,000-$14,000

Option 2: buy Sony A850 + CZ lenses $4000-$5000

Option 3: buy Canon 5D MK2 + L lenses $3500-5000

Option 4: wait 2+ years...mmmmm don't think so.
Expect $200 rebates on 5DMkII bodies before june 2011 if the 5DIII is coming in fall 2011.

The other solution is to go 5D (MkI) and find yourself a nice unit for under $1000.

A pair of f4 L zooms and a few primes (50f14 or 85f1.8) and you're all set.

If you're in the US, I'd shop at keh and get everything 2nd hand.
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