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09-12-2010, 05:54 AM   #31
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The 60-250mm is compatible on a full frame?? That's not what I recall from testing.

?????? DA?60-250mm???????

Look at the vignetting on full frame, completely unacceptable at longer focal lengths.

09-12-2010, 07:04 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by ozlizard Quote
It really gets down to print size, as far as I am concerned that is the only limitation of my K20 for landsape work.
QuoteOriginally posted by uchinakuri Quote
Meanwhile, a friend had his D700 and had zero problems with AF and was able to shoot at a much lower ISO.
To my mind this is a far more compelling reason for moving to "full-frame" than the abstract economics of the camera's production etc. The viewfinder on the D700 was a joy to use the one time I had one in my hands, shooting a bar at 02:30 (for their website). But:
a) it's very complex
b) it weighs enough that my 6'3" brother complains about it
c) it's a lot of cash for something that fragile and theft-ready

That sort of camera is against the grain for Pentax, going way back. And quite frankly, why on Earth would tiny Pentax go toe-to-toe with Canon and Nikon in that space.

Moreover, if you look at this:

ペンタックス、「K-r」の新製品舶\会 - デジカメWatch

Pentax is following the third-party market research they're speaking to in this presentation. The small blue bit at the top of the bars is the advanced part of the market. Notice how it's clearly shrinking year over year, while the lower part grows by leaps and bounds. Pentax clearly sees itself playing in that "beginner" part (into which they've included mirrorless). I don't know anything about Pentax's plans, but they appear to be finding themselves market niches that don't seem to have anything to do with "serious amateurs" and "full frame" SLR's. Sorry to say.
09-12-2010, 07:10 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Big G Quote
The 60-250mm is compatible on a full frame?? That's not what I recall from testing.

?????? DA?60-250mm???????

Look at the vignetting on full frame, completely unacceptable at longer focal lengths.
No, it's not compatible. Vignetting is even visible in the viewfinder.

But FF-true-believers have declared the lens "fullframe" and no proof of being APS-C only is accepted.
09-12-2010, 07:26 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by ewalk Quote
In regards to a FF lens line-up, Pentax already has:

DA* 55mm f/1.4
DA* 60-250mm f/4
DA* 200mm f/2.8
DA* 300mm f/4
DFA 100mm f/2.8 Macro
FA 31mm f/1.8
FA 43mm f/1.9
FA 77mm f/1.8
FA 50mm f/1.4
FA 50mm f/2.8 Macro

that are all FF compatible. There are reports that the new DA-L 35mm f/2.4 is based on the old FA 35mm f/2 design - potentially being FF compatible as well.

Even some of the current DA Limited's (40mm and 70mm in particular) have decent performance on film bodies, so I'd even include those two on the list.

Pentax is honestly one "normal" zoom (24-70mm f/2.8) away from having a solid FF ready line-up.
The problem is Pentax has 0 digitally optimized Full frame lenses (well, maybe the DFA 100mm macro WR coul be the only one). All DA lenses are meant for APS-C, and although some of them might work on a larger image circle, I wouldn't expect the performance to be stellar (even the DA*200 and DA*300, that everyone considers to be FF, come with this notice on bhphotovideo: "Not compatible with "full-frame" (35mm size) cameras"). Same applies for the FA lenses, they are FF, but its performance on a Pentax digital FF is uncertain (even Ned Bunnell discussed that in his blog).

09-12-2010, 07:30 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by skawi Quote
Same applies for the FA lenses, they are FF, but its performance on a Pentax digital FF is uncertain (even Ned Bunnell discussed that in his blog).
I've seen enough results with FA (Limited) lenses converted to EOS (blasphemy!) to state that they work extremely fine on digital FF.
09-12-2010, 07:31 AM   #36
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Thanks for your useful info, but if you read the others post carefully, you will find:

1.There is 1 more person think inside the box

QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
To my mind this is a far more compelling reason for moving to "full-frame" than the abstract economics of the camera's production etc. The viewfinder on the D700 was a joy to use the one time I had one in my hands, shooting a bar at 02:30 (for their website). But:
a) it's very complex
b) it weighs enough that my 6'3" brother complains about it
c) it's a lot of cash for something that fragile and theft-ready

That sort of camera is against the grain for Pentax, going way back. And quite frankly, why on Earth would tiny Pentax go toe-to-toe with Canon and Nikon in that space.
Pentax did not use a FF to battle toe-to-toe with FF from Canikon, Pentax has the 645D to do this , and yes, the 645D has all the vices you noted above


QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
Moreover, if you look at this:

ƒyƒ“ƒ^ƒbƒNƒX、「K-r」‚フ新製•i”*•\‰ - ƒfƒWƒJƒ仝atch

Pentax is following the third-party market research they're speaking to in this presentation. The small blue bit at the top of the bars is the advanced part of the market. Notice how it's clearly shrinking year over year, while the lower part grows by leaps and bounds. Pentax clearly sees itself playing in that "beginner" part (into which they've included mirrorless). I don't know anything about Pentax's plans, but they appear to be finding themselves market niches that don't seem to have anything to do with "serious amateurs" and "full frame" SLR's. Sorry to say.
One again, what if the pentax FF camera will not go in the Blue shrinking part but the Yellow expanding one??

Last edited by XATN3q; 09-12-2010 at 08:02 AM.
09-12-2010, 07:42 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by skawi Quote
The problem is Pentax has 0 digitally optimized Full frame lenses (well, maybe the DFA 100mm macro WR coul be the only one). All DA lenses are meant for APS-C, and although some of them might work on a larger image circle, I wouldn't expect the performance to be stellar (even the DA*200 and DA*300, that everyone considers to be FF, come with this notice on bhphotovideo: "Not compatible with "full-frame" (35mm size) cameras"). Same applies for the FA lenses, they are FF, but its performance on a Pentax digital FF is uncertain (even Ned Bunnell discussed that in his blog).
Actually, the DA* 55 is a digital lens, the D FA 50 and 100 are and so is the new DA L 35/2.4. As far as the BH disclaimer, that is in part because the don't have an aperture ring and that means aperture priority won't be available on some film bodies such as my MZ-3. But guess what, I can still use my DA* 300 on it in shutter priority or automatic. All the limited lenses have Ghostless Coating so that really shouldn't be an issue. Ned is a marketing guy and not an engineer. He was regurgitating what is Tokyo handlers told him to. Also, it is hard to separate out when the say "developed for digital." Its hard to say that for the FA 43mm and FA 77mm and FA 31 ltds given when they were designed at the end of the film heyday. They can't make that statement for the FA 35/2 AL but they can the DA 35/2.4 AL even though the both share the same optical design and coatings including the Ghostless Coating because they don't make a film body anymore.


Edit: Ned also said he would rather use his Leica than a dSLR for most shooting anyway.
09-12-2010, 07:45 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
I've seen enough results with FA (Limited) lenses converted to EOS (blasphemy!) to state that they work extremely fine on digital FF.
Well, president of Pentax USA doesn't seem to be as confident as you. Here are some quotes from a post in his blog:

"Many lenses originally designed for film fall short in terms of distortion control and edge-to-edge sharpness when used with a full frame sensor"

"And although we have some wonderful FA lenses, like my favorite FA 31mm Limited, I'm not sure even this lens would be up to the optical challenge".

09-12-2010, 07:49 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by skawi Quote
Well, president of Pentax USA doesn't seem to be as confident as you. Here are some quotes from a post in his blog:

"Many lenses originally designed for film fall short in terms of distortion control and edge-to-edge sharpness when used with a full frame sensor"

"And although we have some wonderful FA lenses, like my favorite FA 31mm Limited, I'm not sure even this lens would be up to the optical challenge".
Of course, Ned's #1 priority is to sell APS-C cameras, because that's all Pentax has at the moment.

Again: I have seen enough results with the FA Limiteds on full frame Canons to state that these are up to snuff on Digital-FF. They won't work worse than they already did on film.
09-12-2010, 07:50 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by skawi Quote
Well, president of Pentax USA doesn't seem to be as confident as you. Here are some quotes from a post in his blog:

"Many lenses originally designed for film fall short in terms of distortion control and edge-to-edge sharpness when used with a full frame sensor"

"And although we have some wonderful FA lenses, like my favorite FA 31mm Limited, I'm not sure even this lens would be up to the optical challenge".
Again, Ned was speaking in generalities and was too busy playing with is Leica to realize that ff Canon guys have been hacking the FA ltd lenses to use on their bodies. If this was a blog from one of the lens design engineers, it would be a different story. However, These FA ltd were very well on film and APS-c and canon ff, they will likely work well on ff Pentax if there ever is one.
09-12-2010, 08:00 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Actually, the DA* 55 is a digital lens, the D FA 50 and 100 are and so is the new DA L 35/2.4. As far as the BH disclaimer, that is in part because the don't have an aperture ring and that means aperture priority won't be available on some film bodies such as my MZ-3. But guess what, I can still use my DA* 300 on it in shutter priority or automatic. All the limited lenses have Ghostless Coating so that really shouldn't be an issue. Ned is a marketing guy and not an engineer. He was regurgitating what is Tokyo handlers told him to. Also, it is hard to separate out when the say "developed for digital." Its hard to say that for the FA 43mm and FA 77mm and FA 31 ltds given when they were designed at the end of the film heyday. They can't make that statement for the FA 35/2 AL but they can the DA 35/2.4 AL even though the both share the same optical design and coatings including the Ghostless Coating because they don't make a film body anymore.


Edit: Ned also said he would rather use his Leica than a dSLR for most shooting anyway.
Well, even considering these lenses work nicely on a digital FF camera, to be competitive in the FF market, Pentax would still need to come with at least three zooms (12-24, 24-70, 70-200) and some longer primes (400mm...).
09-12-2010, 08:20 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by skawi Quote
Well, even considering these lenses work nicely on a digital FF camera, to be competitive in the FF market, Pentax would still need to come with at least three zooms (12-24, 24-70, 70-200) and some longer primes (400mm...).
The need for ff lenses has been discussed and is the proverbial :deadhorse:. However, its not like Pentax doesn't have the optical designs and capability to put out some FF lenses.
09-12-2010, 08:26 AM - 1 Like   #43
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Perhaps a good move for Pentax would be to bring out a FF EVIL camera? With full support for all existing Pentax lenses? Thoughts?
09-12-2010, 08:46 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
Perhaps a good move for Pentax would be to bring out a FF EVIL camera? With full support for all existing Pentax lenses? Thoughts?
A full frame Pentax mirrorless with a good EVF or an optical VF and full K mount support would be my number 1 option at the moment!
09-12-2010, 09:00 AM   #45
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Yes, this would put Pentax in the spotlight and way ahead of the competition. Even if it's not a very profitable move, it will say to others : this is a company that has one of the best APS-C (K5) in the world, one of the best and affordable medium format (645D) and the single and first EVIL FF on the market

But I think the chances of this happening are almost 0.
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