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09-12-2010, 02:00 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by XATN3q Quote
Thanks for your useful info, but if you read the others post carefully, you will find:

1.There is 1 more person think inside the box
Uh-huh. Is "return to full-frame" outside the box?

QuoteOriginally posted by XATN3q Quote
One again, what if the pentax FF camera will not go in the Blue shrinking part but the Yellow expanding one??
This isn't Canon or Panasonic we're talking about, this is a firm that doesn't even field products on shelves in much of the world. I think they're demonstrating that they have a product set in mind for that category. Bright and colourful designs for the Japanese market. I imagine we'll see an APS-C mirrorless body soon that has some off-the-wall cachet.

One healthy difference I see between Hoya and the old Pentax is that Hoya recognizes that it's running a business and is producing products designed to grow the business. Whereas the old Pentax seemed to look backwards far too much at a detriment to its future. Sooner or later I suspect that they'll stop producing the all-things-to-all-people and very low volume K-7/K-5 line altogether.

09-12-2010, 02:19 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by emr Quote
You think they might have an ace up their sleeve? I'm afraid they're concentrating on those strange modular cameras where the lens and the sensor are in one package. And which BTW are IMO bound to fail, even though they were an interesting experiment.
Yes, I was thinking exactly of the modular cameras. I agree that they're ridiculous cameras, but they produce results. This GXR-produced poster at the CP Plus show in March was significantly larger than the one produced from a 645D. I was impressed with the quality and with their willingness to show it off (unlike Pentax's curiously board-printed mid-size poster. Ricoh actually does know how to produce quality imaging devices (the matter of their shitty electronics aside).

But such (bizarre?) experimentation is possible in a market in which they otherwise have no stake at all, wouldn't you say? I don't know what their ambitions are in photographic products, but their other business lines are profitable and they are actively producing photography products.

But I suppose that no other vendor has a stake in the success of the K mount....
09-12-2010, 02:21 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
One healthy difference I see between Hoya and the old Pentax is that Hoya recognizes that it's running a business and is producing products designed to grow the business. Whereas the old Pentax seemed to look backwards far too much at a detriment to its future.
Not sure if the facts agree with you. Only the K-x (Hoya) seems to have a similar success to the K10D (Pentax) and it's a low-end model. I don't see much change, they still are a 2 DSLR business (we can except the 645D).

On a business point of view, Pentax was not bankrupt when it was merged into Hoya. Nothing proves me that Hoya did benefit the Pentax DSLR line, at least from the end user point of view...
09-12-2010, 02:29 PM   #64
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IMO, no way there will be an FF. Based on statements from leadership of Pentax, as well as other anecdotal information (some posted here.)

We are all on a sinking ship, and at the first of the 7 levels of grief: Denial.

09-12-2010, 03:01 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
Not sure if the facts agree with you. Only the K-x (Hoya) seems to have a similar success to the K10D (Pentax) and it's a low-end model. I don't see much change, they still are a 2 DSLR business (we can except the 645D).

On a business point of view, Pentax was not bankrupt when it was merged into Hoya. Nothing proves me that Hoya did benefit the Pentax DSLR line, at least from the end user point of view...
Was the K10D really a big success, though? In the K10D days I didn't actually see any of those cameras on the streets, just a very few DS, DL, and K100D units, usually in the hands of a shabbily-dressed middle-aged man like me. At the same time, the K10D days marked the end of their products being commonly available in stores in North America. And of course in-fighting among the shareholders.

The K-x is a different story altogether. Living in Japan I see Pentax DSLR's everywhere. Pentax is now producing products that people are buying. In pursuing the mainstream entry market they've had success. It looks to me like they're taking that in a direction that's got little to do with the old (small) market. A market that's neither growing nor producing the sort of income that can be found in the K-x sort of product.

I think they're very wise to maintain a two-DSLR product line-up. They can't compete with Sony/Nikon/Canon in that space. Like Olympus and Panasonic, they've ceded that market and are making their own market. The K-5 can be the aspirational product, and the 645D can serve as a demonstration of capability and "pro" presence. The camera market is changing very rapidly right now, and I see Pentax changing in response to that challenge. I applaud.
09-12-2010, 04:47 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
Was the K10D really a big success, though?
Going by websites like Flickr you can easily see that it was a big success amongst the so-called advanced amateurs. Some more anecdotal evidences like POTD or even the PPG show that the K10D has never been equaled by K20D and K-7. On Flickr only the K-x seems to take the lead.

QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
At the same time, the K10D days marked the end of their products being commonly available in stores in North America.
If I'm not mistaken it was a Hoya decision to "restructure" the whole distribution system.

QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
I think they're very wise to maintain a two-DSLR product line-up.
Maybe too wise. I think there is a large hole between the K-x and the K-7. They could easily mix some features from both cameras and make a very good success. A WR version of K-x/K-r would have no real competition and would reinforce the image of a brand that offer affordable WR. They seemed to go for that after the WR release of the 2 kit lenses but strangely didn't really follow up on that. I thought they would re-release their lens in WR but so far only the D-FA 100mm did get the treatment.

QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
The K-5 can be the aspirational product, and the 645D can serve as a demonstration of capability and "pro" presence. The camera market is changing very rapidly right now, and I see Pentax changing in response to that challenge. I applaud.
The 645D is a very nice camera but they won't be able to do a lot of things if they don't control the sensor going into it. The DMF market is dying and if Kodak decide to pull the plug, Pentax will be left with no sensor supplier. The current sensor is also a crop of real MF so the advantage vs FF is not that great. When FF cameras will hit soon enough 30-40MP, the advantage will be very thin indeed.
09-12-2010, 05:48 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
IMO, no way there will be an FF. Based on statements from leadership of Pentax, as well as other anecdotal information (some posted here.)

We are all on a sinking ship, and at the first of the 7 levels of grief: Denial.
It's not up to Pentax.

It's up to Canikon and Sony who could price FF at a level that would force Pentax to provide FF or lose all high-end sales, both bodies and lenses.

People keep this line of thinking that Pentax has some master plan and FF is not there. Nonsense. They will be forced to react to competitor's moves just like in any other industry. If they don't they lose sales and die. Pentax 100% has an FF in testing precisely because their worst case scenario is Nikon and Canon start dropping FF prices with their vertically integrated sensor development. The whole point of vertical integration is to drive commodity pricing lower.

That's not where Pentax wants to be.
09-12-2010, 06:15 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
Uh-huh. Is "return to full-frame" outside the box?



This isn't Canon or Panasonic we're talking about, this is a firm that doesn't even field products on shelves in much of the world. I think they're demonstrating that they have a product set in mind for that category. Bright and colourful designs for the Japanese market. I imagine we'll see an APS-C mirrorless body soon that has some off-the-wall cachet.
"Return to ff" is an inevitable move , "FF must vs FF" is inside the box

and why it will be an "APC-S camera" not a "FF camera"? Canon had its first under-$1000-DSLR and it was a huge step. Now why can't Pentax make a colorful/joyful/whatever-ful FF and at an affordable price that make people purchase??


Last edited by XATN3q; 09-12-2010 at 06:21 PM.
09-12-2010, 06:59 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
...At the same time, the K10D days marked the end of their products being commonly available in stores in North America.
I'm glad you qualified that to 'North America' Pentax has always had a pretty good store presence in Australia. The local distributor has been doing an OK distribution job with Pentax for several decades now. The profile of the brand isn't as high as Canikon but Pentax has always been on the shelves.

It's likely that across the globe different markets will have different buyer trends and different Pentax retail stories. This makes reading Pentax's strategy and motivations for product development a little harder.
09-12-2010, 07:03 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by uccemebug Quote
Was the K10D really a big success, though? In the K10D days I didn't actually see any of those cameras on the streets, just a very few DS, DL, and K100D units, usually in the hands of a shabbily-dressed middle-aged man like me. At the same time, the K10D days marked the end of their products being commonly available in stores in North America. And of course in-fighting among the shareholders.

The K-x is a different story altogether. Living in Japan I see Pentax DSLR's everywhere. Pentax is now producing products that people are buying. In pursuing the mainstream entry market they've had success. It looks to me like they're taking that in a direction that's got little to do with the old (small) market. A market that's neither growing nor producing the sort of income that can be found in the K-x sort of product.

I think they're very wise to maintain a two-DSLR product line-up. They can't compete with Sony/Nikon/Canon in that space. Like Olympus and Panasonic, they've ceded that market and are making their own market. The K-5 can be the aspirational product, and the 645D can serve as a demonstration of capability and "pro" presence. The camera market is changing very rapidly right now, and I see Pentax changing in response to that challenge. I applaud.
I think you are probably correct. There was thread a while back about Pentax being a Japanese oriented company. I think to some degree that's probably correct. A lot of people keep thinking their goal is to somehow compete head to head with Canon or Nikon. It seems to me they aren't really doing that. Sure they make cameras and to some degree a camera is a camera, but I think Pentax and Olympus are just approaching it differently. I wouldn't buy a pink camera but apparently people do so good for them for making one. I'll be very surprised if they release a full frame camera anytime in the immediate future. No problem if they do, but I just don't see that as being where they are headed. They have a high end camera with 645 anyway.

Honestly a lot of camera buyers have no freaking clue what full frame camera is and could really care less since they don't even print. This friend of mine bought one (5D MK II) because the salesman talked her into it and it was expensive so it had to be good. So had absolutely no idea what full frame was. She now shoots an E-P2 and the Canon with the two big zooms are in her closet.

I'm not being critical of full frame but I think it's safe to say that there are probably more camera buyers who have don't have a clue what it is or could care less than there are ones who endlessly fret over 100% crops and noise and high ISO. And I'm betting a lot of those folks like pink or green or orange or blue cameras too. So good let Pentax sell them cameras. They have to make money somehow or they will go out of business. Trying to make a competitor to that Canon full frame seems like a losing business strategy to me. Now for all the nice people who post here who want a full frame I hope they make one, but I sure wouldn't get my hopes up too much.

I think Pentax makes great products but they aren't trying to be (nor at this point they probably couldn't be) Canon or Nikon.
09-12-2010, 07:12 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by XATN3q Quote
"Return to ff" is an inevitable move , "FF must vs FF" is inside the box

and why it will be an "APC-S camera" not a "FF camera"? Canon had its first under-$1000-DSLR and it was a huge step. Now why can't Pentax make a colorful/joyful/whatever-ful FF and at an affordable price that make people purchase??
I guess they could but right now probably not at $600-$800 price point. And honestly don't you think most KX or KR buyers could care less about the sensor size even if they really thought about it. Especially if you are just posting JPEGS on the internet. I pretty sure that's what most people do now or get 4X6 prints at the Walgreens. Do you really need a full frame camera for that? Now a pink one absolutely!!!

If they could make a full frame camera like the NX 100 (I think that's it) or the new Panasonic m4/3 and make it orange then they would really be onto something. I think those cameras are going to do really well over the next few years. A lot of people like small cameras. That's the only compliment I ever got my KX or K7, but people really ask about my E-P2. When they here they price they of that darn little thing they lose interest though.
09-12-2010, 07:16 PM   #72
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After all, I finally got it. NO FF from Pentax.
09-12-2010, 07:22 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by happygui Quote
After all, I finally got it. NO FF from Pentax.
I wouldn't say that, but I think the other poster is correct. They won't do it until the price point for that sensor size is down to mid level DSLR prices, $1000-$1500. For that to happen Canon, Nikon, et al have to release cameras in that price range. Maybe that will happen. Who knows.
09-12-2010, 07:31 PM   #74
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I do not expect FF from Pentax for the foreseeable future unless it is more economical to manufacture FF sensor compared to high-end cropped sensor. For that to happen, FF camera has to drop down to the $1500 level where the volume of demand may justify the replacement of crop sensor in the mainstream digital SLR. That is not going to happen anytime soon.

I will be interested to see if the trend is also going to smaller compact bodies like k-7 and k-5. At least, the Canon 60D (smaller than 50D) is going into that direction now.
09-12-2010, 07:35 PM   #75
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As we are talking about brand, I'll throw in my 2c.

I think Pentax as a brand is starting to gain more traction here in the USA. Instead of a dumb look, you get a "oh yeah... those are nice" for such-and-such reason. This is especially true for women. Pentax is making serious strides with color and fun aspects. Just *today* I had two women I know find serious interest in Pentax products when all I did was say "hey, look this exists...". No shock it was a Purple K-x and the new rs1000 with replaceable faceplates. Both women are artists and in their 20s. I think the big negative that Pentax needs to change here is getting those cameras into retail stores.

I don't really care to have the K-7 or other higher-end Pentax I'm interested in at say Best Buy... as I would always just look for the best deal online, but if they get those fun cameras visible to the general public, it will have a positive effect on their whole lineup. The more sales Pentax gets, I think the more higher-end gear they can offer us. FF would come if their position was better I think. We might know something late this month, who knows...
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