[stanleyk]

As we are talking about brand, I'll throw in my 2c.

I think Pentax as a brand is starting to gain more traction here in the USA. Instead of a dumb look, you get a "oh yeah... those are nice" for such-and-such reason. This is especially true for women. Pentax is making serious strides with color and fun aspects. Just *today* I had two women I know find serious interest in Pentax products when all I did was say "hey, look this exists...". No shock it was a Purple K-x and the new rs1000 with replaceable faceplates. Both women are artists and in their 20s. I think the big negative that Pentax needs to change here is getting those cameras into retail stores.

I don't really care to have the K-7 or other higher-end Pentax I'm interested in at say Best Buy... as I would always just look for the best deal online, but if they get those fun cameras visible to the general public, it will have a positive effect on their whole lineup. The more sales Pentax gets, I think the more higher-end gear they can offer us. FF would come if their position was better I think. We might know something late this month, who knows...

I might add to this that women are the majority of the population, the increasingly control most of the purchasing power, and as person who spent 10+ years working in higher education they make up the largest number of enrolled college students. Heck the university I worked at had seperate (but not stated) admission standards for men and women. We had to just to keep the student population at 52% women and 48% men. On top of that male students drop out at a higher rate. If we had admitted them equally on grades and test scores it would have been closer to 55% female vs 45% male. My point is you have a good point women being an excellent demographic to pursue sales wise. In the not too distant future they will comprise the highest educated, highest earning economic demographic in America. And no I don't know a single female who cares about FF. It seems to be mostly a "guy" thing.

Just kidding on that last part kind of.

[virgilr]

I liken the whole situation to the fact that profitability drives the entire chain of a technology, regardless of what is the most feasibly attainable quality level with the technology at hand.

APS-C was the first incarnation of sensors available for a marketable DSLR. All efforts were put into improving the technology of this sensor format so that it could be seen as a viable option for the majority of users of the predeceasing technology (film), since in the early incarnations pixel dimensions were not available to print a two-page magazine layout at the required resolution for standard printing processes.

Once this was realized this became the mainstream. Then as technology advanced, FF became an option with it's specific technical issues to overcome, and they were. Because of all the research and development and then profitability that was built into the APS-C due to the initial development push, quantities of this sensor size can be produced at a profitable level. FF stays a niche because of the fact that once an attainable goal was realized and users that wanted to move to digital could do so and be able to capture images that could be printed up to a certain size, the need was met.

Sure, I'd love to have that sense of space in the viewfinder again, I'd love to be able to shoot wide with standard wide lenses. Am I going to fork over the prices of a niche market camera? I don't think so. I'll stick with the joy of taking awesome images with glass that flies under the radar of the rest of the Canikon world (in the used MF sense), and enjoy the process of photography without having to feel like I've been taken for a ride.

So in this sense, Hoya/Pentax is taking the path of most profitability and the surest route, given the huge gap between themselves and the market leaders. Stick with technology that can make you money- R&D is expensive, folks! I imagine that this is one of the reasons for the 645D- they were able to take a format that they had already invested into the R&D in terms of mechanics and optics, and were able to marry in the digital capturing paradox without having to push into years and untold $$'s in R&D.

I compare this to the TN versus IPS LCD panel monitors. TN is abhorrent in it's color reproduction and viewing angles- yet TN panels could achieve response times that made gaming doable on an LCD screen. The average user had their needs met. IPS panels can now achieve response times on par, but they are still many times more expensive because of the fact that the technology was pushed into a niche for those needing accurate color at the expense of response time. Not enough units produced, price is high. (fortunately now Dell is offering some great IPS panels at reasonable prices, but I'll hang onto my old Trinitron CRT until it dies because those glowing phosphors still produce the most accurate color)

Just a thought.

[uccemebug]

Going by websites like Flickr you can easily see that it was a big success amongst the so-called advanced amateurs. Some more anecdotal evidences like POTD or even the PPG show that the K10D has never been equaled by K20D and K-7. On Flickr only the K-x seems to take the lead.

The declining sales in the mid-level DSLR can't possibly be doing the future of that product line any good.

If I'm not mistaken it was a Hoya decision to "restructure" the whole distribution system.

I'm sure that:
a) Hoya management did so because of the prior situation
b) the experience did nothing for Hoya's appetite for catering to American camera tastes

It's up to Canikon and Sony who could price FF at a level that would force Pentax to provide FF or lose all high-end sales, both bodies and lenses.

The logic is inescapable as long as Hoya is attempting to pursue sales in that space. If they're not pursuing those sales, they don't have to worry about Canon/Nikon. At root, it doesn't seem to be a market that Hoya wants to compete in.

[PentaxPoke]

As we are talking about brand, I'll throw in my 2c.

This is especially true for women. Pentax is making serious strides with color and fun aspects. Just *today* I had two women I know find serious interest in Pentax products when all I did was say "hey, look this exists...". No shock it was a Purple K-x and the new rs1000 with replaceable faceplates.

Wow, sorry but that is nonsense. Women who are into photography care as much about performance as men. I refuse to believe you can attract serious women photographers to a brand with "pretty colors."

Stanley, you argue that women are the largest and highest educated demographic, yet they don't care about FF? I suppose they just care about the color of a camera? Have you guys ever met a woman photographer before? I learned about photography from a woman, and let me assure you that the color of the camera was the last thing on her mind.

[blende8]

People keep this line of thinking that Pentax has some master plan and FF is not there. Nonsense. They will be forced to react to competitor's moves just like in any other industry. If they don't they lose sales and die.

Well, what I want Pentax is not to "react", but to act.
I want something really cool, something to be proud of.
Making incremental changes to their APS-C line is all well and good, but they need something big, to get out of their niche.
But that is hoping too much probably ...

[uccemebug]

"Return to ff" is an inevitable move , "FF must vs FF" is inside the box

"" indeed!

and why it will be an "APC-S camera" not a "FF camera"? Canon had its first under-$1000-DSLR and it was a huge step. Now why can't Pentax make a colorful/joyful/whatever-ful FF and at an affordable price that make people purchase??

Pentax is selling cameras as fashion accessories. I'm not sure that it would work as well when the camera is a much bulkier and expensive item and less cute.

Sure, I'd love to have that sense of space in the viewfinder again, I'd love to be able to shoot wide with standard wide lenses. Am I going to fork over the prices of a niche market camera? I don't think so. I'll stick with the joy of taking awesome images with glass that flies under the radar of the rest of the Canikon world (in the used MF sense), and enjoy the process of photography without having to feel like I've been taken for a ride.

Well said.

I imagine that this is one of the reasons for the 645D- they were able to take a format that they had already invested into the R&D in terms of mechanics and optics, and were able to marry in the digital capturing paradox without having to push into years and untold $$'s in R&D.

I suspect that they already made that commitment.

Well, what I want Pentax is not to "react", but to act. I want something really cool, something to be proud of.

Well that would be nice. I think it was Falk who, in another thread, said, "make it small and awesome". And I could see a hypothetical DSLR that I could actually get excited about: one that returns to the no-nonsense focus of the tried-and-true SLR roots. I've got old film cameras that are simply a joy to use. For me, that joy just isn't there in any DSLR I've tried, and I don't expect that formula to be recaptured. The DSLR is evolving into an un-planned and retro-engineered thing: it's competing with still cameras and video cameras alike, and doing so in an unnecessarily over-architected body. No fun.

[sjwaldron]

Wow, sorry but that is nonsense. Women who are into photography care as much about performance as men. I refuse to believe you can attract serious women photographers to a brand with "pretty colors."

Stanley, you argue that women are the largest and highest educated demographic, yet they don't care about FF? I suppose they just care about the color of a camera? Have you guys ever met a woman photographer before? I learned about photography from a woman, and let me assure you that the color of the camera was the last thing on her mind.

I agree that generalization can't include everyone. I was recalling two recent experiences... neither of which own a DSLR camera at the moment.

I never once said that women in general don't care about FF cameras, however I did say that the one who is interested in a DSLR *wants* the color one over the black one of the same model, and is hence much less likely to buy a cankon camera too. The cost effective color model could possible be a gateway to a more powerful model in the future.

[stanleyk]

Just got through reading a great biography of Diane Arbus a photographer I really admire. There are a lot really great women photographers.

If I were to backtrack what I would say is this, most people who buy cameras don't really know or care as much about the sensor size. Yes, if they spent some time studying it they might, but conversely I [I]think[I] people tend to spend whatever time they have on what interests them most. I really love cameras so I when I buy one I spend time making sure whatever I'm going to purchase matches my needs. On the other hand when I bought a new car 6 months ago I spent about 2 hours on it. I like Honda's and didn't look any further. I just choose the cheapest one and wrote them a check. Cars just don't interest me at all as long as they start and roll. I have friends who obsess over cars. It's what they like. However, photography is a hobby at best for most people not a passion. Heck it's a hobby for me.

I'm sure there are thousands or who knows what number of women who want a full frame camera. I'd have no way of knowing. The truth is most of the time when I try and discuss cameras with people male or female, their eyes start rolling in the back of their head. I think it's safe to say the majority of camera shoppers are more influenced by advertising than sensor size.
As for women becoming the largest college educated segment in our society, that's just a fact. Colleges are scrambling around trying to figure out how to attract and more importantly keep male students. They drop out at really high rates. There is a tipping point at most of these schools where if the male population gets too small they start losing out of female applicants.

Quite frankly I got out of Higher Education because unless you at some specific colleges it's a business. Education is really secondary.

BTW- I asked one of my female friends last night who really like photography and she assured me size does matter. But I don't think she was talking about sensors.

[uccemebug]

If I were to backtrack what I would say is this, most people who buy cameras don't really know or care as much about the sensor size.

Absolutely agree.

The truth is most of the time when I try and discuss cameras with people male or female, their eyes start rolling in the back of their head.

...sigh. And then they want you to be ever ready with the camera and make particularly good images at the drop of a hat? 8^)

[janneman]

BTW- I asked one of my female friends last night who really like photography and she assured me size does matter. But I don't think she was talking about sensors.

Probably shopping bags

[PentaxMom Felua]

?
I would buy a turquoise 645d in a jiffy. And an dutch orange k5 speckled with little silver stars too. And I don't even need a big shopping bag for that, just slam it on the passenger seat of me 13-year old red susuki swift.

[ozlizard]

Having seen that the K5 does not break new ground and is really only an updated K7 (or probably what the K7 SHOULD have been to start with) there seems to be a gaping hole between the K5 and the 645D.
Therefore if there is to a brand new model coming up in the not too distant future surely it will be some sort of full frame.
I mean where do they go from here, the K4 or the K8 with slightly more megapixels and slightly faster AF?
There would be no valid reason for me to upgrade from a K20 to a K whatever.

[Pentaxor]

I will get the K-5 for $1,000 (maybe).

[axl]

Well it seems that Pentax has a good relationship with Sony at the moment so maybe, now that we have the K5, 645D and Kr out of the way, we could see a Pentax full frame dslr using the Sony A900/859 sensor?

Announced this year, released 2011?
(my fingers are crossed)

I would love it to be true, but there was exactly the same opinion after K-7 K-x came out... and yet we got another APSC cameras....

[ozlizard]

and yet we got another APSC cameras....

Yep, pretty disappointing really, guess if I want that Sony sensor I'll have to go and buy a Sony DSLR.