Dare I say.... a FF next?

ozlizard · 09-25-2010, 06:31 PM

All technology progresses and a lot of the time this progression is carefully controlled by the major players. Why?, so they can extract the maximum profits from each stage. There will undoubtably be new camera technology in the next few years. IF some of that new stuff involves the use of full frame sensors in current sized aps-c bodies then that will become the norm. If full frame is better than cropped sensors (and we know they currentky are) then that is what will happen. That is probably when Pentax will produce a full frame. Unless of course they have been working on one already, and like the 645D, will eventually be released. When aps-c has reached it's limits Canon and Nikon and others will bring out a whole new range of full frame sensor based cameras, probably all electrinic and who knows what else. And people will buy them because we all what the latest and the greatest, don't we?

Pentaxor · 09-25-2010, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor

Don't waste time Pentaxor, get the equipment you need now. Pentax will not be making a FF. The only way they can make it clearer is by going bankrupt. You have to give them credit for never promising anything.

I'm waiting for the other players to come out with something new next year, not hoping anything from Pentax. besides, I'm waiting for a significant drop on the prices of FF bodies.

stanleyk · 09-25-2010, 08:10 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Pentaxor

I'm waiting for the other players to come out with something new next year, not hoping anything from Pentax. besides, I'm waiting for a significant drop on the prices of FF bodies.

I'm guessing you'll be waiting quite a while. Even Sony said they weren't sure if they were going to release an A55 style Full Frame camera. I don't think they have done well with that format. I don't think Canon or Nikon really sell that many of them. The trend appears to be more towards mirrorless and ASP-C than Full Frame. If I had to guess Full Frame bodies are stuck at $2500+. Although Sony has one at around $2000. You could probably get a good deal on one used though. I've thought about that. Like you I can't justify a $2500+ camera body. It's a great hobby but at $2500 it starts needing to be a "I'm paying the rent with this."

Pentaxor · 09-25-2010, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by stanleyk

I'm guessing you'll be waiting quite a while. Even Sony said they weren't sure if they were going to release an A55 style Full Frame camera. I don't think they have done well with that format. I don't think Canon or Nikon really sell that many of them. The trend appears to be more towards mirrorless and ASP-C than Full Frame. If I had to guess Full Frame bodies are stuck at $2500+. Although Sony has one at around $2000. You could probably get a good deal on one used though. I've thought about that. Like you I can't justify a $2500+ camera body. It's a great hobby but at $2500 it starts needing to be a "I'm paying the rent with this."

Canon will release a 5D MKIII, that's why there has been a fluctuation of used or BNIB copy of 5D MKII. I had seen a few selling below 2,000, even as low as $1700 locally. but I know that it will drop more by next year, around 1k to 1,4. so all is good.

although I have to say that a mirrorless option would be great. I'm not totally closed minded but we'll see how it goes come Nov. 2011.

the swede · 09-26-2010, 02:28 AM

Originally posted by Pentaxor

we'll see how it goes come Nov. 2011.

Dont wait.... Go FF now, and then change body next year.

Otherwise you will just be unhappy and have no lust to acctually use your stuff, that you know you're going to sell anyway. I mean....its just gadgets....do what you want NOW.

Its taking pictures that matters.

**ManuH** · 09-26-2010, 03:47 AM

I think the biggest issue for Pentax is to find a FF sensor. Finding an APS-C sensor seems much easier at least.

And financially it seems to make more sense to jump into the mirrorless bandwagon than the FF one. Looking at the improvements done in CD-AF on the K-5, it seems clear that Hoya spent some R&D on that. It would be nice if they did FF and mirrorless in the same camera. But once again it's finding the good sensor that may be hard. You can be sure that the next big thing in mirrorless kingdom will be PD-AF built onto the sensor.

ogl · 09-26-2010, 04:06 AM

Originally posted by ManuH

I think the biggest issue for Pentax is to find a FF sensor. Finding an APS-C sensor seems much easier at least.

Funny...Sony has at least 2 FF sensors. Kodak.

**ManuH** · 09-26-2010, 04:31 AM

Originally posted by ogl

Funny...Sony has at least 2 FF sensors. Kodak.

2 FF sensors? Aside from the "noisy" 24MP, which one it is? And the Kodak is a CCD (no LV, no video = no market). If Pentax makes an FF they won't select a mediocre sensor. Sensor is what killed the MZ-D and almost killed the 645D. I'm sure that the lack of success of A850/A900 is related to the sensor because otherwise they are very nice full featured camera (except for the lack of LV and video).

**dadipentak** · 09-26-2010, 05:27 AM

It is reported/rumored that Pentax is discontinuing the FA ltd lenses. If true, I'd take that as pretty clear evidence that a FF Pentax DSLR is not going to happen.

ogl · 09-26-2010, 05:39 AM

Originally posted by ManuH

2 FF sensors? Aside from the "noisy" 24MP, which one it is? And the Kodak is a CCD (no LV, no video = no market). If Pentax makes an FF they won't select a mediocre sensor. Sensor is what killed the MZ-D and almost killed the 645D. I'm sure that the lack of success of A850/A900 is related to the sensor because otherwise they are very nice full featured camera (except for the lack of LV and video).

24 MP has rather good DR and colours. Noise is not problems. Bad colours and IQ is MORE problem.

CCD - I bet that a lot of Pentaxian buy FF camera from Pentax with Kodak CCD without any video and LV.

M9 is profitable camera, by the way...

I don't understand your deep thought about almost killed 645D

ogl · 09-26-2010, 05:47 AM

I hope that Pentax can make FF EVIL with new bayonet.

I see only ONE solution. To make new DC only bayonet for new FF EVIL/Hybrid system.
With flange focal distance lower than 30 mm to make fast compact lenses and compact bodies.

Art Vandelay II · 09-26-2010, 06:18 AM

Originally posted by ogl

I hope that Pentax can make FF EVIL with new bayonet.

I'd like to see that myself, that would really separate them from everyone else. If they make the mount compatible with Leica glass via an adapter I could see a good portion of rangefinder users coming to Pentax. It would be even harder to justify a $7000 Leica M9 if Pentax offered something similar for under $2000.

But honestly, APS-C IQ is so good now I really don't see much of a need for full frame these days. My interest in FF in DSLR's has always been more about the larger OVF's, better high ISO, and shallower DOF.

However if the samples I've seen of the new Nikon D7000 are any indication APS-C now has all the high ISO ability I'll ever need, and I can work around the DOF issue. Unlike OVF's EVF size isn't related to sensor/mirror size, so full frame makes a bit more sense to me in DSLR's than in EVIL's.

I am curious as to how Pentax will top the K5. Can anyone honestly say the K5 is beneath their ability? It has wonderful high ISO, shoots plenty fast for anyone with an ounce of skill, and has enough resolution to make very large prints. Camera makers are soon going to have the same problem PC manufactures currently have. Computers have been so fast for years people no longer upgrade as often as they used to, and I think the K5 will cause the same issue for Pentax. It looks so good that it would be very tough to justify upgrading it. The best thing might to be offer something different since they can't really make it much better...a full frame EVIL or DSLR would certainly be different.

Mohawk · 09-26-2010, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by aleonx3

I can understand your crave about FF (lots of discussion already). However, with the release of K-5/D7000, the advantage gap between FF and APS-C is shrinking. For the average people, FF is not the ultimate goal anymore; it will remain in the "professional" top tier circle occupied by the top two camera makers. Unless, of course, Canikon changes the playing field by flooding the FF camera with the same price of APS-C camera - don't see that happening in the next couple of years.

Until then, one can only dream a FF in K-7/K-5 body; for me, I am ok with K-5 or its successor.

FF is not 'ulimate', nor should it be synonimous with 'professional'.

But these delusional FFfanboys think it's the 'holy grail' for some reason. Well they can measurebate on APS-C vs FF till they go blind.

Gimme a 645D any day.

**ManuH** · 09-26-2010, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by ogl

24 MP has rather good DR and colours. Noise is not problems. Bad colours and IQ is MORE problem.

You didn't answer my question, what is the second FF sensor Sony is supposed to produce?

The 24MP FF Sony sensor is very good but at high ISO it has a deserved bad reputation. And that's probably why the A850 didn't do so well even at its price point. Pentax would be well advised to not use that sensor. They need something better.

Originally posted by ogl

CCD - I bet that a lot of Pentaxian buy FF camera from Pentax with Kodak CCD without any video and LV.

M9 is profitable camera, by the way...

Not me. I don't care for video but Liveview is very useful for careful work like landscapes, macros, etc.

M9 maybe profitable but that's also because it's a completely different product. Pentax OTOH would produce yet another FF. They would compete with Sony, Canon and Nikon in what is already a niche market. I'm sure the bean counter at Pentax concluded that it made no sense unless they had a special feature to make the product really unique.

Originally posted by ogl

I don't understand your deep thought about almost killed 645D

At the time Pentax was ready for the 645D, they only had a 18MP sensor available. It would have been obsolete by now. Not many suppliers for medium format sensors. They settled on a 33x44cm to be able to sell the camera below the 10K$ price point.

**ManuH** · 09-26-2010, 06:54 AM

Originally posted by Mohawk

But these delusional FFfanboys think it's the 'holy grail' for some reason.

It is the Holy Grail because it is a sweet spot where optics are concerned. That's the only one that allows such DOF control. MF is theoretically able to allow more DOF control but in practice you don't see lenses faster than f/2.8 or as many varied zooms.

The only aspect where FF is not a "sweet spot" is in sensor size. It's more difficult to produce 24x36mm sensor in one shot, they have to be stitched. If you think about it that's the only reason why APS-C has been so popular. Because it is cheaper to produce.

09-26-2010, 05:47 AM	#176
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	I hope that Pentax can make FF EVIL with new bayonet. I see only ONE solution. To make new DC only bayonet for new FF EVIL/Hybrid system. With flange focal distance lower than 30 mm to make fast compact lenses and compact bodies. Last edited by ogl; 09-26-2010 at 06:12 AM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Abstract Dew I Dare...	bbluesman	Post Your Photos!	4	01-05-2010 12:12 AM
Dare I go minimalist for my next trip?	pingflood	Travel, Events, and Groups	11	05-25-2009 02:35 AM
Dare to struggle	xjjohnno	Post Your Photos!	1	05-01-2009 06:56 AM
Dare Devil Stunt plus a nice shot	MightyMike	Post Your Photos!	4	12-08-2008 09:10 AM
Dare devils	mingdie	Post Your Photos!	5	11-27-2006 02:10 AM

09-25-2010, 06:31 PM	#166
ozlizard Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Bridgetown West Australia Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 903 Original Poster	All technology progresses and a lot of the time this progression is carefully controlled by the major players. Why?, so they can extract the maximum profits from each stage. There will undoubtably be new camera technology in the next few years. IF some of that new stuff involves the use of full frame sensors in current sized aps-c bodies then that will become the norm. If full frame is better than cropped sensors (and we know they currentky are) then that is what will happen. That is probably when Pentax will produce a full frame. Unless of course they have been working on one already, and like the 645D, will eventually be released. When aps-c has reached it's limits Canon and Nikon and others will bring out a whole new range of full frame sensor based cameras, probably all electrinic and who knows what else. And people will buy them because we all what the latest and the greatest, don't we?

09-25-2010, 07:17 PM	#167
Pentaxor Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,513	Originally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Don't waste time Pentaxor, get the equipment you need now. Pentax will not be making a FF. The only way they can make it clearer is by going bankrupt. You have to give them credit for never promising anything. I'm waiting for the other players to come out with something new next year, not hoping anything from Pentax. besides, I'm waiting for a significant drop on the prices of FF bodies.

09-25-2010, 08:10 PM - 1 Like	#168
stanleyk Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Taylor, Texas Posts: 1,018	Originally posted by Pentaxor I'm waiting for the other players to come out with something new next year, not hoping anything from Pentax. besides, I'm waiting for a significant drop on the prices of FF bodies. I'm guessing you'll be waiting quite a while. Even Sony said they weren't sure if they were going to release an A55 style Full Frame camera. I don't think they have done well with that format. I don't think Canon or Nikon really sell that many of them. The trend appears to be more towards mirrorless and ASP-C than Full Frame. If I had to guess Full Frame bodies are stuck at $2500+. Although Sony has one at around $2000. You could probably get a good deal on one used though. I've thought about that. Like you I can't justify a $2500+ camera body. It's a great hobby but at $2500 it starts needing to be a "I'm paying the rent with this."

09-25-2010, 09:03 PM	#169
Pentaxor Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,513	Originally posted by stanleyk I'm guessing you'll be waiting quite a while. Even Sony said they weren't sure if they were going to release an A55 style Full Frame camera. I don't think they have done well with that format. I don't think Canon or Nikon really sell that many of them. The trend appears to be more towards mirrorless and ASP-C than Full Frame. If I had to guess Full Frame bodies are stuck at $2500+. Although Sony has one at around $2000. You could probably get a good deal on one used though. I've thought about that. Like you I can't justify a $2500+ camera body. It's a great hobby but at $2500 it starts needing to be a "I'm paying the rent with this." Canon will release a 5D MKIII, that's why there has been a fluctuation of used or BNIB copy of 5D MKII. I had seen a few selling below 2,000, even as low as $1700 locally. but I know that it will drop more by next year, around 1k to 1,4. so all is good. although I have to say that a mirrorless option would be great. I'm not totally closed minded but we'll see how it goes come Nov. 2011.

09-26-2010, 02:28 AM	#170
the swede Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,310	Originally posted by Pentaxor we'll see how it goes come Nov. 2011. Dont wait.... Go FF now, and then change body next year. Otherwise you will just be unhappy and have no lust to acctually use your stuff, that you know you're going to sell anyway. I mean....its just gadgets....do what you want NOW. Its taking pictures that matters.

09-26-2010, 03:47 AM	#171
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	I think the biggest issue for Pentax is to find a FF sensor. Finding an APS-C sensor seems much easier at least. And financially it seems to make more sense to jump into the mirrorless bandwagon than the FF one. Looking at the improvements done in CD-AF on the K-5, it seems clear that Hoya spent some R&D on that. It would be nice if they did FF and mirrorless in the same camera. But once again it's finding the good sensor that may be hard. You can be sure that the next big thing in mirrorless kingdom will be PD-AF built onto the sensor.

09-26-2010, 04:06 AM	#172
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by ManuH I think the biggest issue for Pentax is to find a FF sensor. Finding an APS-C sensor seems much easier at least. Funny...Sony has at least 2 FF sensors. Kodak.

09-26-2010, 04:31 AM	#173
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	Originally posted by ogl Funny...Sony has at least 2 FF sensors. Kodak. 2 FF sensors? Aside from the "noisy" 24MP, which one it is? And the Kodak is a CCD (no LV, no video = no market). If Pentax makes an FF they won't select a mediocre sensor. Sensor is what killed the MZ-D and almost killed the 645D. I'm sure that the lack of success of A850/A900 is related to the sensor because otherwise they are very nice full featured camera (except for the lack of LV and video).

09-26-2010, 05:27 AM	#174
dadipentak Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,590	It is reported/rumored that Pentax is discontinuing the FA ltd lenses. If true, I'd take that as pretty clear evidence that a FF Pentax DSLR is not going to happen.

09-26-2010, 05:39 AM	#175
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by ManuH 2 FF sensors? Aside from the "noisy" 24MP, which one it is? And the Kodak is a CCD (no LV, no video = no market). If Pentax makes an FF they won't select a mediocre sensor. Sensor is what killed the MZ-D and almost killed the 645D. I'm sure that the lack of success of A850/A900 is related to the sensor because otherwise they are very nice full featured camera (except for the lack of LV and video). 24 MP has rather good DR and colours. Noise is not problems. Bad colours and IQ is MORE problem. CCD - I bet that a lot of Pentaxian buy FF camera from Pentax with Kodak CCD without any video and LV. M9 is profitable camera, by the way... I don't understand your deep thought about almost killed 645D

09-26-2010, 06:18 AM	#177
Art Vandelay II Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Charlotte, NC Photos: Gallery Posts: 886	Originally posted by ogl I hope that Pentax can make FF EVIL with new bayonet. I'd like to see that myself, that would really separate them from everyone else. If they make the mount compatible with Leica glass via an adapter I could see a good portion of rangefinder users coming to Pentax. It would be even harder to justify a $7000 Leica M9 if Pentax offered something similar for under $2000. But honestly, APS-C IQ is so good now I really don't see much of a need for full frame these days. My interest in FF in DSLR's has always been more about the larger OVF's, better high ISO, and shallower DOF. However if the samples I've seen of the new Nikon D7000 are any indication APS-C now has all the high ISO ability I'll ever need, and I can work around the DOF issue. Unlike OVF's EVF size isn't related to sensor/mirror size, so full frame makes a bit more sense to me in DSLR's than in EVIL's. I am curious as to how Pentax will top the K5. Can anyone honestly say the K5 is beneath their ability? It has wonderful high ISO, shoots plenty fast for anyone with an ounce of skill, and has enough resolution to make very large prints. Camera makers are soon going to have the same problem PC manufactures currently have. Computers have been so fast for years people no longer upgrade as often as they used to, and I think the K5 will cause the same issue for Pentax. It looks so good that it would be very tough to justify upgrading it. The best thing might to be offer something different since they can't really make it much better...a full frame EVIL or DSLR would certainly be different.

09-26-2010, 06:34 AM	#178
Mohawk Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 109	Originally posted by aleonx3 I can understand your crave about FF (lots of discussion already). However, with the release of K-5/D7000, the advantage gap between FF and APS-C is shrinking. For the average people, FF is not the ultimate goal anymore; it will remain in the "professional" top tier circle occupied by the top two camera makers. Unless, of course, Canikon changes the playing field by flooding the FF camera with the same price of APS-C camera - don't see that happening in the next couple of years. Until then, one can only dream a FF in K-7/K-5 body; for me, I am ok with K-5 or its successor. FF is not 'ulimate', nor should it be synonimous with 'professional'. But these delusional FFfanboys think it's the 'holy grail' for some reason. Well they can measurebate on APS-C vs FF till they go blind. Gimme a 645D any day.

09-26-2010, 06:46 AM	#179
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	Originally posted by ogl 24 MP has rather good DR and colours. Noise is not problems. Bad colours and IQ is MORE problem. You didn't answer my question, what is the second FF sensor Sony is supposed to produce? The 24MP FF Sony sensor is very good but at high ISO it has a deserved bad reputation. And that's probably why the A850 didn't do so well even at its price point. Pentax would be well advised to not use that sensor. They need something better. Originally posted by ogl CCD - I bet that a lot of Pentaxian buy FF camera from Pentax with Kodak CCD without any video and LV. M9 is profitable camera, by the way... Not me. I don't care for video but Liveview is very useful for careful work like landscapes, macros, etc. M9 maybe profitable but that's also because it's a completely different product. Pentax OTOH would produce yet another FF. They would compete with Sony, Canon and Nikon in what is already a niche market. I'm sure the bean counter at Pentax concluded that it made no sense unless they had a special feature to make the product really unique. Originally posted by ogl I don't understand your deep thought about almost killed 645D At the time Pentax was ready for the 645D, they only had a 18MP sensor available. It would have been obsolete by now. Not many suppliers for medium format sensors. They settled on a 33x44cm to be able to sell the camera below the 10K$ price point.

09-26-2010, 06:54 AM	#180
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	Originally posted by Mohawk But these delusional FFfanboys think it's the 'holy grail' for some reason. It is the Holy Grail because it is a sweet spot where optics are concerned. That's the only one that allows such DOF control. MF is theoretically able to allow more DOF control but in practice you don't see lenses faster than f/2.8 or as many varied zooms. The only aspect where FF is not a "sweet spot" is in sensor size. It's more difficult to produce 24x36mm sensor in one shot, they have to be stitched. If you think about it that's the only reason why APS-C has been so popular. Because it is cheaper to produce.