Can the K-5 dethrone the D700 ?

AGWoodard · 09-11-2010, 09:10 AM

Quote:

It looks like it will match the iso performance of D700

For that to be true, the K5 would have to be almost 3 times better than the KX.

And that is simply a silly assumption. It looks like, on paper, like a fine camera, perhaps right up there with the best of the best, but.....to say it will best any FF camera is a real stretch.

WerTicus · 09-11-2010, 09:48 AM

Sure it could, why not? A k-x outperforms a 5d mk1.... Then the d800 will come out and be that one step ahead. The full frame version any given generation of sensor will always be ahead. Give it 18 months and aps-c catches up, but full frame now moves ahead again.

**ManuH** · 09-11-2010, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by WerTicus

Sure it could, why not? A k-x outperforms a 5d mk1....

DxOMark - Compare sensors

ISO score: 1368 for 5D Mk.1, 811 for K-x. That's not bad, that's less than 1 stop, better than the theorical 1.3 stop difference between FF and APS-C.

Only for dynamic range below ISO 400 the K-x is (much) better, that's why the overall score is slightly in favour of K-x.

pcarfan · 09-11-2010, 10:06 AM

I cannot disagree with any of the comments posted thus far except one (may be). I was csurious on what others think, that's all

Originally posted by Nubi

The very act of comparing these two cameras doesn't seem quite right to me somehow . . . . .

That's why I did it

...seriously!...it IS preposterous, but still...that's the point I guess.

Originally posted by ManuH

You're dreaming...............

I cannot deny this

Originally posted by AGWoodard

For that to be true, the K5 would have to be almost 3 times better than the KX.

...............

Is this really true , are you saying the D700 is 3 stops better than the K-x for noise ?......I don't think I agree with this.

**ManuH** · 09-11-2010, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by pcarfan

Is this really true , are you saying the D700 is 3 stops better than the K-x for noise ?......I don't think I agree with this.

If again we rely on DXOmark, the D700 is noted as having about 5dB improvement of signal-to-noise ratio. If I'm not mistaken, 3dB = 1 stop. So, the D700 is better by almost (not quite) 2 stops. D700 ISO 3200 should look almost as good as Pentax K-x ISO 800... After 1600 the difference is about 1 stop but it's because Pentax use noise reduction in their raw files above that speed...

**ManuH** · 09-11-2010, 10:18 AM

BTW, the D3s which is even better than the old D700 is a full 2 stops better than the K-x (ISO 6400 on D3s should look as good as ISO 1600 on K-x !)

AGWoodard · 09-11-2010, 10:33 AM

What I'm saying is I'd take the five year old 5d over a KX any day of the week if I had any inclination of shooting a Canon Camera (and that will never happen)

While I agree that the KX is a fine little camera, and the K5 seems so as well, there is no way the IQ or the ISO capability is going to match that of a FF camera if you do anything more than post to the web or print 8 x 10s out of your home printer.

This is just silly fanboyism at it's worst. I am hoping the K5 is all that we hope it to be. I'll buy it, I'll enjoy it, and I'm sure it will be capable of taking better images than I am, but again, it's still an APS C camera. One day Hoya or whoever owns Pentax at the time, will make a FF camera with the Pentax name on it, and I'll buy that too and be happy with it. But I'm not going to get delusional over it. It is what it is, and no amount of posting or anything else is going to make it anything more. If the K5 will allow me to maintain F8,9 or 10 and a shutter speed around 1/250 with my Sigma 150-500, it will be a great camera for me. But it will never be a FF or capable of the results of a FF camera, and I'm not going to kid myself that it ever will be. But I'll still be a happy photographer all the same.

pcarfan · 09-11-2010, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by AGWoodard

..............there is no way the IQ or the ISO capability is going to match that of a FF camera if you do anything more than post to the web or print 8 x 10s out of your home printer..............

Is the former (IQ) being better with FF for anything larger than an 8X10 print the universal truth or open to 'rational' opinion?

I thought this has not been established as an absolute fact.

Rupert · 09-11-2010, 11:03 AM

I have high hopes for the K5, mainly because I want to upgrade from my K20D, an amazingly fine camera.
If I was interested in matching a D700, I would just buy one....they do sell them! APS-C meets my needs best, is much smaller, which I like, and delivers fine IQ with the proper lenses and in the hands of a qualified shooter. I don't need to compare my Jeep Wrangler to my wife's Ford Escape....they do different things and suit different needs...she has hers, I have mine. Will the K5 be a large improvement in high ISO shooting...yes, I think it will be....Pentax has received the message loud and clear...same with the AF issue. I don't worry much about the other brands, I just look forward to hitting the "Place Order" button. This is going to be a very fine camera!
Best Regards!

Urkeldaedalus · 09-11-2010, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by AGWoodard

What I'm saying is I'd take the five year old 5d over a KX any day of the week if I had any inclination of shooting a Canon Camera (and that will never happen)

While I agree that the KX is a fine little camera, and the K5 seems so as well, there is no way the IQ or the ISO capability is going to match that of a FF camera if you do anything more than post to the web or print 8 x 10s out of your home printer.

This is just silly fanboyism at it's worst. I am hoping the K5 is all that we hope it to be. I'll buy it, I'll enjoy it, and I'm sure it will be capable of taking better images than I am, but again, it's still an APS C camera. One day Hoya or whoever owns Pentax at the time, will make a FF camera with the Pentax name on it, and I'll buy that too and be happy with it. But I'm not going to get delusional over it. It is what it is, and no amount of posting or anything else is going to make it anything more. If the K5 will allow me to maintain F8,9 or 10 and a shutter speed around 1/250 with my Sigma 150-500, it will be a great camera for me. But it will never be a FF or capable of the results of a FF camera, and I'm not going to kid myself that it ever will be. But I'll still be a happy photographer all the same.

I think you're overrating the 5D sensor just based on it being full frame. Now don't get me wrong, the 5D can produce beautiful photos with the right lenses and between ISO100-800, but the K-x is much better at high ISOs.

pcarfan · 09-11-2010, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by Rupert

I have high hopes for the K5, mainly because I want to upgrade from my K20D, an amazingly fine camera.
If I was interested in matching a D700, I would just buy one....they do sell them! APS-C meets my needs best, is much smaller, which I like, and delivers fine IQ with the proper lenses and in the hands of a qualified shooter. I don't need to compare my Jeep Wrangler to my wife's Ford Escape....they do different things and suit different needs...she has hers, I have mine. Will the K5 be a large improvement in high ISO shooting...yes, I think it will be....Pentax has received the message loud and clear...same with the AF issue. I don't worry much about the other brands, I just look forward to hitting the "Place Order" button. This is going to be a very fine camera!
Best Regards!

Hey! Rupert.....miss those squirrel shots

, but lately you've been posting some stunning portraits...I mean seriously stunning ones.

This k-5 could potentially be the first no excuse (universally, not just based on individual preferences) APS-C camera.

noser · 09-11-2010, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by alexeyga

Could somebody more intelligent than me explain how to arrange 18 points symmetrically with one point in the middle?

I'm really not that bad of a mechanical designer, but i'm puzzled...

I've been playing around with that too... it's an interesting little puzzle. My solution adds one point to the middle row with slightly different spacing of the points. Or it's a typo or some sort of leak tracking figure (suggested elsewhere).

Originally posted by alexeyga

That being said, it feels like Pentax is really lost the track of where it's going.... K5 will be what ~1800$CAN for the body up here? That is from a advanced-amateur-oriented brand? WTF??? Unless Pentax is aiming the US market where most "advanced-amateurs" and soccer-moms can afford a D700.... but then again.... a non-FF body at the FF price.... WTF???? on paper it could be the mother of all camera bodies... But in real life - good luck selling a well-equipped Chevy at Mercedes prices...

The Camera Store lists the D700 at just under $2400. Add in the cost of swapping all that glass, and longer glass for FF... yikes! I'm hoping for stellar K-5 performance; like you said, on paper it looks pretty good!

pcarfan · 09-11-2010, 11:36 AM

I am going with the center sensor being somehow counted twice due to differently spec.'d sensors being placed in the center. It could be the f5.6 vs f2.8, but I am hoping it has something to do with Pentax integrating the AF sensor to the SR and has done that with the K-5 center sensor for better tracking (This by the way, cannot be replicated by non-inbody-SR manufacturers).

CWyatt · 09-11-2010, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by pcarfan

D700 IMO is just an amazing package, and for many (including me) the perfect camera in many ways, with almost no major compromises

Size?

noser · 09-11-2010, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by CWyatt

Size?

To me the D700 is about perfect. One of the reasons I skipped the K-7 is it's small size; if the K-5 is a similar body to the K-7 I may just have to suck it up and get used to a kid-sized camera.

09-11-2010, 11:36 AM	#28
pcarfan Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Dayton, Ohio Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,978 Original Poster	The 18th sensor. I am going with the center sensor being somehow counted twice due to differently spec.'d sensors being placed in the center. It could be the f5.6 vs f2.8, but I am hoping it has something to do with Pentax integrating the AF sensor to the SR and has done that with the K-5 center sensor for better tracking (This by the way, cannot be replicated by non-inbody-SR manufacturers).

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09-11-2010, 09:10 AM	#16
AGWoodard Banned Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: New Hampshire/Vermont Posts: 118	Quote: It looks like it will match the iso performance of D700 For that to be true, the K5 would have to be almost 3 times better than the KX. And that is simply a silly assumption. It looks like, on paper, like a fine camera, perhaps right up there with the best of the best, but.....to say it will best any FF camera is a real stretch.

09-11-2010, 09:48 AM	#17
WerTicus Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Perth Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 1,514	Sure it could, why not? A k-x outperforms a 5d mk1.... Then the d800 will come out and be that one step ahead. The full frame version any given generation of sensor will always be ahead. Give it 18 months and aps-c catches up, but full frame now moves ahead again.

09-11-2010, 09:58 AM	#18
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	Originally posted by WerTicus Sure it could, why not? A k-x outperforms a 5d mk1.... DxOMark - Compare sensors ISO score: 1368 for 5D Mk.1, 811 for K-x. That's not bad, that's less than 1 stop, better than the theorical 1.3 stop difference between FF and APS-C. Only for dynamic range below ISO 400 the K-x is (much) better, that's why the overall score is slightly in favour of K-x.

09-11-2010, 10:06 AM	#19
pcarfan Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Dayton, Ohio Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,978 Original Poster	I cannot disagree with any of the comments posted thus far except one (may be). I was csurious on what others think, that's all Originally posted by Nubi The very act of comparing these two cameras doesn't seem quite right to me somehow . . . . . That's why I did it ...seriously!...it IS preposterous, but still...that's the point I guess. Originally posted by ManuH You're dreaming............... I cannot deny this Originally posted by AGWoodard For that to be true, the K5 would have to be almost 3 times better than the KX. ............... Is this really true , are you saying the D700 is 3 stops better than the K-x for noise ?......I don't think I agree with this.

09-11-2010, 10:14 AM	#20
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	Originally posted by pcarfan Is this really true , are you saying the D700 is 3 stops better than the K-x for noise ?......I don't think I agree with this. If again we rely on DXOmark, the D700 is noted as having about 5dB improvement of signal-to-noise ratio. If I'm not mistaken, 3dB = 1 stop. So, the D700 is better by almost (not quite) 2 stops. D700 ISO 3200 should look almost as good as Pentax K-x ISO 800... After 1600 the difference is about 1 stop but it's because Pentax use noise reduction in their raw files above that speed...

09-11-2010, 10:18 AM	#21
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	BTW, the D3s which is even better than the old D700 is a full 2 stops better than the K-x (ISO 6400 on D3s should look as good as ISO 1600 on K-x !)

09-11-2010, 10:33 AM	#22
AGWoodard Banned Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: New Hampshire/Vermont Posts: 118	What I'm saying is I'd take the five year old 5d over a KX any day of the week if I had any inclination of shooting a Canon Camera (and that will never happen) While I agree that the KX is a fine little camera, and the K5 seems so as well, there is no way the IQ or the ISO capability is going to match that of a FF camera if you do anything more than post to the web or print 8 x 10s out of your home printer. This is just silly fanboyism at it's worst. I am hoping the K5 is all that we hope it to be. I'll buy it, I'll enjoy it, and I'm sure it will be capable of taking better images than I am, but again, it's still an APS C camera. One day Hoya or whoever owns Pentax at the time, will make a FF camera with the Pentax name on it, and I'll buy that too and be happy with it. But I'm not going to get delusional over it. It is what it is, and no amount of posting or anything else is going to make it anything more. If the K5 will allow me to maintain F8,9 or 10 and a shutter speed around 1/250 with my Sigma 150-500, it will be a great camera for me. But it will never be a FF or capable of the results of a FF camera, and I'm not going to kid myself that it ever will be. But I'll still be a happy photographer all the same.

09-11-2010, 10:51 AM	#23
pcarfan Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Dayton, Ohio Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,978 Original Poster	Originally posted by AGWoodard ..............there is no way the IQ or the ISO capability is going to match that of a FF camera if you do anything more than post to the web or print 8 x 10s out of your home printer.............. Is the former (IQ) being better with FF for anything larger than an 8X10 print the universal truth or open to 'rational' opinion? I thought this has not been established as an absolute fact.

09-11-2010, 11:03 AM	#24
Rupert Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 25,123	I have high hopes for the K5, mainly because I want to upgrade from my K20D, an amazingly fine camera. If I was interested in matching a D700, I would just buy one....they do sell them! APS-C meets my needs best, is much smaller, which I like, and delivers fine IQ with the proper lenses and in the hands of a qualified shooter. I don't need to compare my Jeep Wrangler to my wife's Ford Escape....they do different things and suit different needs...she has hers, I have mine. Will the K5 be a large improvement in high ISO shooting...yes, I think it will be....Pentax has received the message loud and clear...same with the AF issue. I don't worry much about the other brands, I just look forward to hitting the "Place Order" button. This is going to be a very fine camera! Best Regards!

09-11-2010, 11:14 AM	#25
Urkeldaedalus Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Iowa Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,369	Originally posted by AGWoodard What I'm saying is I'd take the five year old 5d over a KX any day of the week if I had any inclination of shooting a Canon Camera (and that will never happen) While I agree that the KX is a fine little camera, and the K5 seems so as well, there is no way the IQ or the ISO capability is going to match that of a FF camera if you do anything more than post to the web or print 8 x 10s out of your home printer. This is just silly fanboyism at it's worst. I am hoping the K5 is all that we hope it to be. I'll buy it, I'll enjoy it, and I'm sure it will be capable of taking better images than I am, but again, it's still an APS C camera. One day Hoya or whoever owns Pentax at the time, will make a FF camera with the Pentax name on it, and I'll buy that too and be happy with it. But I'm not going to get delusional over it. It is what it is, and no amount of posting or anything else is going to make it anything more. If the K5 will allow me to maintain F8,9 or 10 and a shutter speed around 1/250 with my Sigma 150-500, it will be a great camera for me. But it will never be a FF or capable of the results of a FF camera, and I'm not going to kid myself that it ever will be. But I'll still be a happy photographer all the same. I think you're overrating the 5D sensor just based on it being full frame. Now don't get me wrong, the 5D can produce beautiful photos with the right lenses and between ISO100-800, but the K-x is much better at high ISOs.

09-11-2010, 11:17 AM	#26
pcarfan Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Dayton, Ohio Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,978 Original Poster	Originally posted by Rupert I have high hopes for the K5, mainly because I want to upgrade from my K20D, an amazingly fine camera. If I was interested in matching a D700, I would just buy one....they do sell them! APS-C meets my needs best, is much smaller, which I like, and delivers fine IQ with the proper lenses and in the hands of a qualified shooter. I don't need to compare my Jeep Wrangler to my wife's Ford Escape....they do different things and suit different needs...she has hers, I have mine. Will the K5 be a large improvement in high ISO shooting...yes, I think it will be....Pentax has received the message loud and clear...same with the AF issue. I don't worry much about the other brands, I just look forward to hitting the "Place Order" button. This is going to be a very fine camera! Best Regards! Hey! Rupert.....miss those squirrel shots , but lately you've been posting some stunning portraits...I mean seriously stunning ones. This k-5 could potentially be the first no excuse (universally, not just based on individual preferences) APS-C camera.

09-11-2010, 11:29 AM	#27
noser Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Calgary, AB CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 292	Originally posted by alexeyga Could somebody more intelligent than me explain how to arrange 18 points symmetrically with one point in the middle? I'm really not that bad of a mechanical designer, but i'm puzzled... I've been playing around with that too... it's an interesting little puzzle. My solution adds one point to the middle row with slightly different spacing of the points. Or it's a typo or some sort of leak tracking figure (suggested elsewhere). Originally posted by alexeyga That being said, it feels like Pentax is really lost the track of where it's going.... K5 will be what ~1800$CAN for the body up here? That is from a advanced-amateur-oriented brand? WTF??? Unless Pentax is aiming the US market where most "advanced-amateurs" and soccer-moms can afford a D700.... but then again.... a non-FF body at the FF price.... WTF???? on paper it could be the mother of all camera bodies... But in real life - good luck selling a well-equipped Chevy at Mercedes prices... The Camera Store lists the D700 at just under $2400. Add in the cost of swapping all that glass, and longer glass for FF... yikes! I'm hoping for stellar K-5 performance; like you said, on paper it looks pretty good!

09-11-2010, 11:52 AM	#29
CWyatt Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,291	Originally posted by pcarfan D700 IMO is just an amazing package, and for many (including me) the perfect camera in many ways, with almost no major compromises Size?

09-11-2010, 12:20 PM	#30
noser Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Calgary, AB CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 292	Originally posted by CWyatt Size? To me the D700 is about perfect. One of the reasons I skipped the K-7 is it's small size; if the K-5 is a similar body to the K-7 I may just have to suck it up and get used to a kid-sized camera.