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09-16-2010, 10:30 AM   #181
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QuoteOriginally posted by happygui Quote
+1 Nikon made a big move. I cannot wait to see what K5 has. If the unveiled specifications were correct, K5 is not better than d7000 in any perspective. Not sure how it reflects on the price.
ANY Perspective?

sorry, but SR is one thing Nikon will never have (although we never say never )

so let's all just wait and see. 4 more days.

what's more interesting is what pentax marketing WILL do to stir sales and recruit new pentaxians.

in the mean time, i'm doing my own marketing.
i've already convinced my colleague's daughter and she bought a Kx.

2 of my other colleagues are still on the fence. one needs tethering which unfortunately no current pentax provides,
the other undecided, although he likes the kx.

09-16-2010, 10:37 AM   #182
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QuoteOriginally posted by virgilr Quote
Really? When you change the aperture setting on the lens aperture ring, the body adjusts the shutter speed? Well, yes, that'll work if you leave the lens WIDE OPEN, but if you stop down, there is (AFIK) no way for the body to know the aperture setting on the lens, since (again, AFIK) ALL digital Pentax bodies have a "crippled" K mount, that leaves out the mechanical coupling used on earlier film bodies to be able to sense the tension on the aperture coupling lever to determine the current lens aperture setting via the aperture ring.
Actually, I just tried it out to see if I was indeed crazy/mistaken. The camera does seem to be able to guess a ballpark correct shutter speed (not just wide open) in AV mode, but like aleyga was saying it does take some fiddling with the EV to get consistent results. Even then, in testing it now I can see how the results aren't as consistent as metering with an "A" lens would be. In all honesty, I hadn't noticed this discrepancy before, as I had used the lens in AV mode to take photos of people during meetings and it had worked fine. Good to know.
09-16-2010, 10:43 AM   #183
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QuoteOriginally posted by opiedog Quote
ANY Perspective?

sorry, but SR is one thing Nikon will never have (although we never say never )

so let's all just wait and see. 4 more days.

what's more interesting is what pentax marketing WILL do to stir sales and recruit new pentaxians.

in the mean time, i'm doing my own marketing.
i've already convinced my colleague's daughter and she bought a Kx.

2 of my other colleagues are still on the fence. one needs tethering which unfortunately no current pentax provides,
the other undecided, although he likes the kx.
LOL You are a great Pentaxian.
09-16-2010, 11:08 AM   #184
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QuoteOriginally posted by Urkeldaedalus Quote
Actually, I just tried it out to see if I was indeed crazy/mistaken. The camera does seem to be able to guess a ballpark correct shutter speed (not just wide open) in AV mode, but like aleyga was saying it does take some fiddling with the EV to get consistent results. Even then, in testing it now I can see how the results aren't as consistent as metering with an "A" lens would be. In all honesty, I hadn't noticed this discrepancy before, as I had used the lens in AV mode to take photos of people during meetings and it had worked fine. Good to know.
Wowww... didn't know that was a feature of the K-7. Hmmm. I'm going to take a look at it's ISO 1600 performance ( I rarely use this on the old K100DS- way too noisy) since my current lens lineup would let me use that ISO fairly well indoors. Seeing K-7 bodies pop up around here at ~750.00, and that wouldn't be a bad upgrade (although I'm seriously considering the K-r). Imagine price will drop a bit more next spring when the K-5 hits the market.

I'm all for fiddling with EV comp- just stuck an old Industar 50-2 f/3.5 on that I found in a box of throw away bodies an acquaintance of mine was getting rid of- that requires +2 EV wide open, hehe- but very happy with the results.

But back to topic- sheesh, when I realize what Nikon did, I think they've responded so well to their user base with the inclusion of the Ai tab. Yep, I know that Pentax needs to build market share by bringing new customers into the fold, but like Urkeldaedalus was doing with his convincing of friends and colleagues to give Pentax a try, imagine what kind of enthused referrals Nikon users are going to give, and to boot there sits Nikon with so much market share!

Kills me the way everyone thinks there is this formula to marketing that will be ever so effective- reading posts here, so many opinions flying about and I have a feeling that every company out there is 1/2 the time snowballing it!

Think about the penetration of Pentax in the 70's and 80's- I'm an American living here in Canada now, but from what I've been told, almost every school had K1000's in the photography classes here in the Montreal area. Now, here you are with that name in the minds of the class of consumer that is in a position to have some disposable income available, and yet they're not buying your gear? What if you did a nostalgia-to-now campaign, and threw in a bit where "those classic lenses you loved when first loved photography- use them again like you never thought you could"- well, just ranting, but really, here's a scenerio:

20-something: "Hey dad, I noticed your camera stuff in the closet the other day. What kind of camera do you have?"

Dad: "Oh, yeah, those were the days- great Pentax camera and lenses, man, that camera really was a tank and did I ever get some great pictures with it! Look in that album over there..."

20-something: "Oh, yeah?? Pentax, huh. Looks like you had a few lenses in there, hang on, I'm going to Google Pentax lenses.."
(20-something pulls out his iPhone and scratches around for a minute or two..)

20-something: "Oh, cool! The new Pentax digital SLR- it can use all those lenses and everything is automatic! Well, you can't focus automatically, but- hey, let's take a look at those pictures- hmm- oh, and it says that you can use any of the old lenses in low-light, it can help reduce shake when you're using them!"

Dad: " Now that's interesting... maybe I should look at using that old gear again.."


Possible two sales of a new body?

I know- weird little brain of mine, but to me, that's marketing....

09-16-2010, 11:38 AM   #185
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It's also a good move by Nikon because Canon can't really offer the same options with old Canon glass even if they wanted to because they switched mounts from EOS to FD. I realize the EOS mount is friendly with the M42 mount, but I'm talking about FD lenses.

The news is best for people who already had a cabinet full of old Nikkors. I'm sure the Nikon lenses on the used market are about to get a whole lot more expensive, just like the Pentax lenses have.
09-16-2010, 12:14 PM   #186
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I know that in my previous post and my lame melodrama, that would have been just bodies sold. OK. Obviously you have to drive sales through the system.

I think, though, that what a move like Nikon made does shows the commitment to the user. And this can oftentimes be the push towards a new purchase. Nikon says "we'll let those that can afford a $1000 body dig into their creativity". Period.

Pentax says "dig into your creativity, but you'll need to do a bit of hurdle jumping."

This isn't a big deal to me- I'm just following through on the concept that by telling those that buy your product that you, as a company, are committed to letting the user have tools in their hands that provide them with as many options as possible in the ways that matter (we all know, it's the glass that ultimately counts), then the user feels good about their decision and will stick with the system for a long time!

Bodies, as I've read somewhere else (I think Benjamin Kanarek's blog) are "disposable". Glass isn't. Get the user into the system however you can- let's say biting $50.00 worth of production cost into the inclusion of the K-mount aperture mechanical coupling sensor- and then see where their needs and yes, their desires will take them...

I mean, I love using all this funky old glass that I've picked up at bargain prices. Does that mean that if I had the income available, I wouldn't be looking into buying a 41mm ltd? Of course not- I'd love to own that lens! I feel like because I can use the manual/legacy lenses, I'm in a system that offers me great solutions and I'm going to stick with it.

As well, the flip side holds true- since the DSLR body is more of a commodity than the glass, if you offer the user the ability to use their legacy glass- which gives great results- and in 3 years they want to upgrade to the newest bells/whistles- well, again, the sale is made, because they can keep using what they have and buy into the latest body.

They stick with the system- not with the particulars of the system, because they can feel like the company is going to support them and keep making products they can keep using with their investments, no matter when they were made.
09-16-2010, 02:51 PM   #187
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QuoteOriginally posted by alan_smithee_photos Quote
That is a pretty interesting conversation.
Can anyone clarify/confirm the points about how the D7K (and upper end Nikons) work with legacy MF lenses. Is it the case that they meter and function in all modes (just lacking AF of course)?
Here's how the D7000, D300, D700, D2, D3 handle legacy Nikkor glass:

- In A (aperture) mode - Select your desired aperture on the lens ring. The camera will adjust shutter speed based on the meter.
- In M (manual) mode - Select your desired aperture on the lens ring. Select your shutter speed based on what the meter readout tells you in the viewfinder.

Program or shutter mode don't work as the camera cannot physically move the aperture ring for you. But besides the obvious, yes - any Nikkor AI or newer lens works with these bodies like an AF lens in all respects, except it doesn't AF.

One caveat - you have to program the focal length and minimum aperture of the lens into the camera body, and select it when you initially mount the lens. There are 10 slots to save lenses into. I don't find this to be a big deal, I programmed this into my custom menu so it's quick to get to. Some people dedicate a button to it so you don't even need to go to the menu to change lens profiles.

QuoteQuote:
This is a huge selling point for me (and clearly something I'm ignorant of re: Nikons).
Indeed it is great for the MF prime user - especially when you consider the value of good Nikkor MF glass:
35/2 - $140
50/1.2 - $375
85/1.4 - $550
105/2.5 - $120
180/2.8 - $250
75-150/3.5 E - $40

I use the 50/1.2, 75-150, and 105/2.5 on my D700 all the time, it's fantastic. 50/1.2 below:





QuoteOriginally posted by virgilr Quote
I'm still shooting the heck out of my ol' K100D super. I use the green button (well, AE-L button on this body) and just drop the shutter speed .7 to 1 stop faster (depending on the lens) with my M and K glass, and shoot! Takes all of about 1 second and I'm good to go.
Well...that's the thing, right? It takes you one second to do that, and you're not 100% SURE of the results. Of course it works (somewhat well) for you, but if Pentax offered real compatability with their legacy glass then you'd never use the green button / EV comp method to take photos.

QuoteQuote:
However, to me, the inclusion of the mechanical coupling/sensor on a "pro" Pentax body would seriously make me consider the purchase of a new body, and show a certain commitment to the "pros" shooting with Pentax, since the concept of a professional isn't how much money they spend on gear but the results they get.
Actually, a real commitment would be to release fast glass and fast zooms with service and availability to match. Otherwise, I don't see how they can compete for a "pro's" attention when the other two brands offer it already. But they could start with uncrippling the mount, I suppose.

QuoteQuote:
the fact that Nikon recognized the value of their legacy/vintage glass and it's usability was a huge nod to it's user base, especially those that value image quality over bells and whistles. As well, they threw in the ability to profile lenses mounted that do not have any electronic communication with the body.
Actually, this is not a new function - the D200, D300, D700, and D3 line have always been able to use AI Nikkors and up. This is just the first time they put it on a consumer-level body.

Last edited by edl; 09-16-2010 at 04:18 PM.
09-16-2010, 02:56 PM   #188
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QuoteOriginally posted by Urkeldaedalus Quote
It's also a good move by Nikon because Canon can't really offer the same options with old Canon glass even if they wanted to because they switched mounts from EOS to FD. I realize the EOS mount is friendly with the M42 mount, but I'm talking about FD lenses.

The news is best for people who already had a cabinet full of old Nikkors. I'm sure the Nikon lenses on the used market are about to get a whole lot more expensive, just like the Pentax lenses have.
I'll agree that Canon may have pissed off a few people when they nixxed FD for EOS. However, if you're really into alt glass, buy a Canon. Due to short register distance, they can mount almost any lens out there - Nikkor, Pentax, Minolta etc. Do a quick search on ebay for EOS adapter and see what shows up.


QuoteOriginally posted by virgilr Quote
But back to topic- sheesh, when I realize what Nikon did, I think they've responded so well to their user base with the inclusion of the Ai tab. Yep, I know that Pentax needs to build market share by bringing new customers into the fold, but like Urkeldaedalus was doing with his convincing of friends and colleagues to give Pentax a try, imagine what kind of enthused referrals Nikon users are going to give, and to boot there sits Nikon with so much market share!
Honestly, most Nikon users are AF users. I rarely see another Nikon user who uses MF glass. Actually, I've never seen it. So I wouldn't worry about the price shooting up due to this announcement.

I think Pentax MF glass is expensive because 1. there's no similar AF glass to buy, 2. AF glass has increased in price, 3. most Pentax shooters use Pentax for value.


Last edited by edl; 09-16-2010 at 03:16 PM.
09-16-2010, 06:01 PM   #189
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I used SMC-M lenses all the time on my K100D. The stop down metering when used in A mode was not a problem. I did, however, find using M lenses in manual mode to be a pain in the ass. The combination of stopping down, adjusting, and rechecking was just not worth the effort.

Then I got a K10D. Within a month I stopped using m42 and M lenses on that body. The metering problems were just not worth the effort. Everyone remembers the issues with the K10D and older lenses right?

I don't consider Pentax to really be 100% compatable with older lenses. Sure you can mount them, and they work, but the metering problems really kill the enjoyment.

I am assuming that the K-7 does not have the same issues as the K10D with regard to metering, as I don't see problems getting posted.
09-16-2010, 06:13 PM   #190
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QuoteOriginally posted by jpzk Quote
This was posted by myself on another thread but since I keep seeing more and more talk about the D7000 vs. K5, you may be interested with this:

Nikon D7000 and Pentax K5 - Photo.net Pentax Forum

JP
I started the thread in Photo.net and this thread has valuable information from people who love Pentax but also people who have been let down by Pentax. I am waiting for K5 information but you can see my points and frustration with My Lowest Point with Pentax on service under warranty with my Dead K-x in 9th month. My next camera is unlikely a Pentax camera.

Warmest,
Hin
09-16-2010, 06:20 PM   #191
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QuoteOriginally posted by edl Quote
Here's how the D7000, D300, D700, D2, D3 handle legacy Nikkor glass:

- In A (aperture) mode - Select your desired aperture on the lens ring. The camera will adjust shutter speed based on the meter.
- In M (manual) mode - Select your desired aperture on the lens ring. Select your shutter speed based on what the meter readout tells you in the viewfinder.

Program or shutter mode don't work as the camera cannot physically move the aperture ring for you. But besides the obvious, yes - any Nikkor AI or newer lens works with these bodies like an AF lens in all respects, except it doesn't AF.

-- skipped --
Eddy, much thanks for your information on older AI lens. Can I also ask if the AI lens can meter correctly with Nikon flash in TTL and Auto mode? This is important to know as all Pentax k/M lens won't work with PTTL in Pentax.

Thanks,
Hin
09-16-2010, 08:22 PM   #192
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QuoteOriginally posted by edl Quote
Here's how the D7000, D300, D700, D2, D3 handle legacy Nikkor glass:

- In A (aperture) mode - Select your desired aperture on the lens ring. The camera will adjust shutter speed based on the meter.
- In M (manual) mode - Select your desired aperture on the lens ring. Select your shutter speed based on what the meter readout tells you in the viewfinder.

Program or shutter mode don't work as the camera cannot physically move the aperture ring for you. But besides the obvious, yes - any Nikkor AI or newer lens works with these bodies like an AF lens in all respects, except it doesn't AF.

One caveat - you have to program the focal length and minimum aperture of the lens into the camera body, and select it when you initially mount the lens. There are 10 slots to save lenses into. I don't find this to be a big deal, I programmed this into my custom menu so it's quick to get to. Some people dedicate a button to it so you don't even need to go to the menu to change lens profiles.



Indeed it is great for the MF prime user - especially when you consider the value of good Nikkor MF glass:
35/2 - $140
50/1.2 - $375
85/1.4 - $550
105/2.5 - $120
180/2.8 - $250
75-150/3.5 E - $40

I use the 50/1.2, 75-150, and 105/2.5 on my D700 all the time, it's fantastic. 50/1.2 below:







Well...that's the thing, right? It takes you one second to do that, and you're not 100% SURE of the results. Of course it works (somewhat well) for you, but if Pentax offered real compatability with their legacy glass then you'd never use the green button / EV comp method to take photos.



Actually, a real commitment would be to release fast glass and fast zooms with service and availability to match. Otherwise, I don't see how they can compete for a "pro's" attention when the other two brands offer it already. But they could start with uncrippling the mount, I suppose.



Actually, this is not a new function - the D200, D300, D700, and D3 line have always been able to use AI Nikkors and up. This is just the first time they put it on a consumer-level body.
What's fun is you can actually fit most, if not all of those old Nikkors to your digital K-mount, without the use of an adaptor

I use a 50/1.4, 105/2.5, 135/2.8 on my K-x

heck, i even managed to fit a 35/2 with the aperture tab (which i eventually grinded off)

even an AF Nikkor 28/2.8 regularly. I just grinded off the aperture tab lol.


So fitting pre-Ai/Ai Nikkors is not really an advantage of the D7000 over the K-5 (or any Pentax DSLR). Because those lenses will fit in the K-5 lol
09-16-2010, 08:50 PM   #193
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QuoteOriginally posted by virgilr Quote
Nikon recognized the value of their legacy/vintage glass and it's usability was a huge nod to it's user base, especially those that value image quality over bells and whistles....

Someday we'll see this on a pentax DSLR?
Just as others have predicted that a move by Canon/Nikon into affordable FF bodies would force Hoya to respond in kind, perhaps Nikon has just forced Hoya into adding real meter coupling (reinventing something that was common in the 70's). And once they've got it in the K(digit) line, there's no reason to build two cameras with different mounts—they'd likely introduce it to the K(letter) line as well.

QuoteOriginally posted by virgilr Quote
I think, though, that what a move like Nikon made does shows the commitment to the user. And this can oftentimes be the push towards a new purchase. Nikon says "we'll let those that can afford a $1000 body dig into their creativity". Period.

Pentax says "dig into your creativity, but you'll need to do a bit of hurdle jumping."
Meanwhile, you can seemingly mount whatever you like on a Sony NEX-5 through an adapter and it meters without problem. A friend of mine was showing off a rangefinder-series Voigtlander lens on his NEX-5, no metering issues at all.

QuoteOriginally posted by edl Quote
Here's how the D7000, D300, D700, D2, D3 handle legacy Nikkor glass:

...

There are 10 slots to save lenses into. I don't find this to be a big deal, I programmed this into my custom menu so it's quick to get to. Some people dedicate a button to it so you don't even need to go to the menu to change lens profiles.
QuoteOriginally posted by KungPOW Quote
I don't consider Pentax to really be 100% compatable with older lenses. Sure you can mount them, and they work, but the metering problems really kill the enjoyment.
Agreed, KungPOW. The process that edl describes sounds excellent by comparison. A big, big improvement over:
1. frame shot, select aperture on lens
2. press metering button (causes the lens to stop down, doubling wear on lens)
3. adjust from experience, because you know the metering is wrong
09-17-2010, 05:26 AM   #194
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QuoteOriginally posted by hinman Quote
My next camera is unlikely a Pentax camera.
In the thread you referenced you write "yes, I am over-reacting". Your camera has been in repair less then two weeks and you are using the performance of a service centre that is used by other brands as well to let you guide your next camera purchase? You've been told the service time will be ~four weeks before. I don't understand your reaction at all.

Last edited by Class A; 09-17-2010 at 05:52 AM.
09-17-2010, 06:02 AM   #195
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QuoteOriginally posted by RolloR Quote
...


So fitting pre-Ai/Ai Nikkors is not really an advantage of the D7000 over the K-5 (or any Pentax DSLR). Because those lenses will fit in the K-5 lol
In fact.. there's big difference in focusing/metering in stopped down mode vs. wide open ;-) ... especially on a tiny DX VF .. not to mention the speed.. especially for street photography. I gave up long time using M42 lenses on my k100d ... and the remaining K lenses goes using prefocusing the lens and metering using more or less.. the 'sunny 16 rule' :-) .. pretty primitive (especially that light metering method), huh... but .. that's life with Pentax and non-KA MF lenses.
Entry level nikon's also are crippled but at least they have more AFS lenses from where to choose.
That's why I use my MF lenses on a film body (chinon.. not a Pentax because a ME/MX is too expensive and not better than a Chinon .. or Ricoh ;-) ).
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