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09-17-2010, 08:07 AM   #196
edl
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QuoteOriginally posted by hinman Quote
Eddy, much thanks for your information on older AI lens. Can I also ask if the AI lens can meter correctly with Nikon flash in TTL and Auto mode? This is important to know as all Pentax k/M lens won't work with PTTL in Pentax.

Thanks,
Hin
Hey Hin,

I don't hear much discussion on Nikon forums about manual lenses and metering with flash so I'm not going to give you a 100% yes or no answer on that one. But here's my personal experience on the D700 - I use the built-in flash all the time and set FEC to -0.7, it gives excellent, consistent fill flash results. Certainly the flash results I have obtained with any Nikon body (D40, D700) are much more consistent than what I used to get with my K20D and 540.

Edmund

09-17-2010, 08:17 AM   #197
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QuoteOriginally posted by RolloR Quote
What's fun is you can actually fit most, if not all of those old Nikkors to your digital K-mount, without the use of an adaptor

I use a 50/1.4, 105/2.5, 135/2.8 on my K-x

heck, i even managed to fit a 35/2 with the aperture tab (which i eventually grinded off)

even an AF Nikkor 28/2.8 regularly. I just grinded off the aperture tab lol.


So fitting pre-Ai/Ai Nikkors is not really an advantage of the D7000 over the K-5 (or any Pentax DSLR). Because those lenses will fit in the K-5 lol
So you're saying that since you can modify a Nikkor to physically fit on a Pentax with a dremel, there's no advantage? Maybe Hoya should put that in their marketing materials.

Please read my post again, slowly, and give it some thought before responding.
09-17-2010, 08:48 AM   #198
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QuoteOriginally posted by hinman Quote
Eddy, much thanks for your information on older AI lens. Can I also ask if the AI lens can meter correctly with Nikon flash in TTL and Auto mode? This is important to know as all Pentax k/M lens won't work with PTTL in Pentax.

Thanks,
Hin
I've seen threads saying you can use P-TTL with any lens (m42, M, etc) if you short out the aperture pin. Haven't tried it myself, but with how P-TTL works, it makes sense as just the firmware disabling the pre-flash metering.
09-17-2010, 08:49 AM   #199
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QuoteOriginally posted by edl Quote
So you're saying that since you can modify a Nikkor to physically fit on a Pentax with a dremel, there's no advantage? Maybe Hoya should put that in their marketing materials.
Just a clarification: you can mount all pre-AI quite easily on a Pentax with no modification, and some amount of later lenses without modification while maintaining infinity focus. There's just some that require modification. Of course, I'm sure it will work much better on a Nikon.

I do think it's cool that you can do that and get IS and focus confirm with anything on the Pentax. The only thing is I wish a half-press would give you a metering read, without having to use the DOF preview button on lenses that the camera can't even stop down.

09-17-2010, 01:02 PM   #200
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I still find it befuddling that Urkeldaedalus actually sees different shutter speeds in Av mode with a K or M series lens depending on the position of the aperture ring on the lens. I checked in the K-7 manual, and it states (as all other crippled K-mounts do) that the metering will only be taken from the full open aperture position, that the setting on the aperture ring will not be reflected in the metering.

Anyways, as was stated before by another poster, mechanical aperture coupling should be part of the top of the line Pentax DSLR body. I know, linear versus non-linear (depending on the lens type)- but seriously, I mean, what, around a maximum of 20 different f-stop positions on an aperture ring, developers can't code an algorithm to handle that? And if you were storing profiles for lenses in the camera, you would indicate which type of lens it was (I think the difference is that the K mount lenses aren't linear in the position, whereas Ka mount lenses are). Not terribly difficult, I can imagine! A good team of developers who can take the algorithms probably that exist for the modern film bodies and adapt them to the DSLR processor/software engine, can't imagine that would be an enormous technical hurdle!
09-17-2010, 03:31 PM   #201
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QuoteOriginally posted by Eruditass Quote
Just a clarification: you can mount all pre-AI quite easily on a Pentax with no modification, and some amount of later lenses without modification while maintaining infinity focus. There's just some that require modification. Of course, I'm sure it will work much better on a Nikon.

I do think it's cool that you can do that and get IS and focus confirm with anything on the Pentax. The only thing is I wish a half-press would give you a metering read, without having to use the DOF preview button on lenses that the camera can't even stop down.
I know what RolloR was saying, I used to have a K10D and K20D myself. If you take any lens and find a way to mount it to a Nikon, it will also show focus confirmation. I can handhold any M42 in my D40 and it does this. Not highly recommended for serious use, obviously.

My point is that any lens - manual, auto, whatever - should mount, meter, and perform its function with as few steps or interferences as possible. Obviously mounting is important, but if you have to play guess the exposure every time, you should save the hassle and just buy the mount it was intended for, especially since Nikon, Canon, and Pentax bodies all cost about the same. Yes, I know Pentax has in body IS (a great feature) - but it doesn't freeze moving objects, and if you're shooting static objects you should be on solid support (tripod) where IS doesn't matter.

Anyways, I really hope Pentax adds the aperture coupling meter to future bodies. Everytime a manufacturer ups their game it forces others to do the same, so we all benefit in the end.

Last edited by edl; 09-17-2010 at 06:10 PM.
09-17-2010, 06:12 PM   #202
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QuoteOriginally posted by virgilr Quote
I still find it befuddling that Urkeldaedalus actually sees different shutter speeds in Av mode with a K or M series lens depending on the position of the aperture ring on the lens. I checked in the K-7 manual, and it states (as all other crippled K-mounts do) that the metering will only be taken from the full open aperture position, that the setting on the aperture ring will not be reflected in the metering.
I think he doesn't realize that the metering is not reflecting the aperture he's selected. So when he selects, say, F/8 on a 50/1.4, it's still metering as if it was at 1.4. Of course, consequently he'd get an image that was underexposed by 5 stops.
09-18-2010, 05:26 AM   #203
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QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
No they are not, Pentax quality lenses are way cheaper than Nikon's. Until now, there was a gap between the kit 18-55 and the much more expensive 17-50, it will be filled with 18-135, provided it is a good lens (for its price), the 35/2.4 may also attract those users (at least not move them to Nikon because of Nikon's 35/1.8)

People buying the K-5 or D7000 will look at the system, unlike people buying the K-r or D3100.
This may be a good point



QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
It will be the strong point in favor of Nikon (but AF in video doesn't matter if it's CD-AF). But Pentax has the SR and I hope they will improve it again to make it an even stronger proposition. They need to have a big lead on this one. Nikon doesn't have that many VR lenses (compared to Canon for example) and even some pro lenses don't have it (like the 17-55mm f/2.8).

Ah yes and the quiet shutter, let's hope Pentax capitalize on this. If they had a good marketing department they would call it "USS" (ultrasmooth shutter) or something as ridiculous as a name but that would make everyone notice about that feature.
Pentax should for sure keep the quiet shutter.





QuoteOriginally posted by kytra Quote
Guys, mind that I wasn't refering to those who have tons of manual lenses, oldies who used to shoot pentax film bodies and fanboys or the few pros heavily invested in SDM zooms and/or primes, FA limiteds. I was reffering to the average DSLR user who got hooked at the time by the good price/features of pentax and the whole customer supported buzz about how great is to have milions of manual lenses to try.

Currently, Pentax lenses are priced much higher than 2-3 years ago, the line-up contains only a few options (granted very nice primes amongst them, but still very few). SDM issue, coming obsessively in a lot of user feedback (some having 2-3 failures un the same lens) was NEVER neither acknowledged by Pentax (goof heads IMO) and apparently nor addressed. This is like screwing your customers in my book. Try and make a google search "Nikon lens failure" and "Pentax lens failure" and see the results. - 2,000,000 hits for Nikon and 735,000 hits for pentax while the number of nikons are maybe 10-15 times greater than pentaxes.

So, I am a pentax user looking to upgrade...I have a body K10/20/200D with FA 50 1.4, the 18-55mm and the 55-300mm and 1 A 50mm f1.7 which I use for reversed macro. I want something better, faster, with more ISO and resolution, with good video and weather sealed so I was waiting for the follower of the K7 (K7 was too little of an upgrade for me). And I see a lot of buzz about the D7000. What I might think?

1. Specs are very competitive sometimes better for nikon in critical parts (AF, AF in video mode, flash, compatibility)
2. One can actually feel and try the D7000 in every freaking camera store out there whereas for Pentax one has to rely on internet in the most cases.
3. smaller price for D7000 and...
5. better brand image, service support, lenses availability (including affordable and good AF primes)
6. I could swap lenses with my nikon shooting friends
7. weather sealing - this really is overrated - dust and moisture is enough for 95% of the customers - who the heck and how often is shooting in pouring rain?
If you do not know of the problems in regard to Nikon glass, even some of the very expensive ones, then you haven’t done your research properly. And this goes for some of their cameras too. Canon as well has their fair share, they are just different from Pentax.

Regarding point 7 in your line-up, the printed commercial for the D90 had a guy hiding under an outdoor table from the rain, stating that it was bad weather but a good day for photography. Some of the most stunning work I’ve seen from Jim Brandenburg, are his rainy wildlife shoots from Montana. Changing weather brings the most fascinating light.

I expect the D7000 to be sealed like the D200, Eos 40D or maybe even the Eos 5D Mark II level. So sealing at the most vulnerable places to avoid dust and moisture, but not weather proofing to the extent of K7 or E3, which can handle heavy rain for longer durations.


Ergonomics are important, some will pick the D7000, others will prefer the K5. Many internet stores, let you buy a camera, and return it, if it wasn’t to your liking. If you want to try and hold a Pentax, it is really not particularly difficult.
I think it is such a joke that every time a new camera comes out, people get afraid of their own shadow. The K200 did well, though were speculated to be do poorly. The colors of the K-x were laughed at, but turned out to be great marketing and it did good in sales. K7 were on pretty much all accounts a big step up from the K20. More and more people are upgrading from P&S. Aiming for third place in DSLR market, is a very profitable position.
Every time a new cam comes out from Nikon or Canon, some people get afraid that now it is the turning point for Olympus, Pentax, Sony. If one gets so afraid, then maybe it will be better to switch. It is not a life or death situation, we’re talking about cameras
The D7000 is a good response to what Pentax has at the table. Compact prime selection is still not there. Nor do I think it will contain all the more advanced functions of the D300 / K5. Such a high MP sensor will require good glass, and that is very expensive in Nikon land.


I think the D7000 shows that Nikon also take the digital SLR format seriously. This is where the volume and cash flow is.
The D7000 and the K5 might come out somewhat the same. Some will choose to buy the Nikon, others the Pentax. It is the way it has always been. The D7000 will for sure eat away at the sale of D300s, we’ll see how happy the Nikon bosses will be in the end. Either way, it is good for us consumers to have the competition.
Nikon will be undercutting themselves, to try and hurt Canon. There will always be people, who want to try a different approach, than the mindless brand recognition that sales people try to stuff down your throat. People like choice and sometimes taking a different route. Olympus has been tried declared dead the last 10 years in DSLR segment, and people try to do the same with Pentax. Some things never change, I guess :ugh:

If people have had a Kx and liked it, why should they suddenly change brand, just because Nikon can suddenly match the K5 ?
And you expect 95 % to change brand, I think you need to take a deep breath and have a sip of water. With my fast fifty, I can shoot at ¼ of a second. Nikon still do not have any VR primes in the normal segment. With such a high MP sensor, IQ tops out at 3200-6400.


QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
Whatever you can tell about the weathersealing being overrated this is a feature that request a better build and cost more money. If you don't need it, then the K-r may be a bettter camera for you (smaller and much cheaper)

As being said before, yes the Nikon will outsell the Pentax, there is no surprise about it. Now, i don't agree that Nikon's lenses are cheaper than Pentax, especially in the higher range which is the one that will interest K-5 buyer they are in fact much more expensive (they are also more expensive than Canon)

Regarding backward compatbility, I maintain that Pentax has better compatibility. I have a very good friend who shoot Nikon, and whose father is a Nikon lens collector, and knowing if he can put a lens or not on his camera is often a headhache. Pentax is a no brainer.
The Nikon compatibility doesn’t go as far back as Pentax. Older lenses might need to be modified.

It could be that the D7000 functions perfectly with AI-S lenses, but has stop down metering with AI or AI'd.
We’ll know more, when the full reviews come up.

Anyway little is new. The D200 and other cams had great backwards compatibility. It is just the first time that Nikon has put a pentaprim viewfinder in a mid-segment DSLR, and then not crippled the compatibility. I doubt it will change much. For the D300 users who will buy it, they already have and know about manual lenses. For newbies, manual lenses are for most, not within their scope of preference.
Prices for AI-S lenses are not like the vast pool of lenses that Pentax cams can draw from; using takumars, vivitar or unknow third party. You want faster primes for Nikon, you bring out your 100 dollar bills. You don’t go to a flea market and pick up lens for a twenty and expect compatibility, like people have been writing about and having fun with in Pentax land.

I welcome the option for D7000 users. It is great fun to play with old manual focus lenses. But I expect it not to be for the core of D7000 buyers. It will be reserved for the D200 advanced crowd. Sad but true. Most never go beyond their kit lens.

09-18-2010, 05:57 AM   #204
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Nikon D7000: Camera Road Test with Chase Jarvis

[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNKtFkX29IE[/YT]

What will Pentax do now if the K-5 is priced higher than the F7000 ?
09-18-2010, 06:02 AM   #205
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote

What will Pentax do now if the K-5 is priced higher than the F7000 ?

Why shouldn't it be priced higher than the D7000? We don't know the features of the K-5 yet but the D7000 is a plastic camera with two magnesium body panels whereas the K-5 is a magnesium body with steel chassis. K-5 must be compared with the D700 in built quality.
09-18-2010, 08:39 AM   #206
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
This may be a good point




Pentax should for sure keep the quiet shutter.







If you do not know of the problems in regard to Nikon glass, even some of the very expensive ones, then you haven’t done your research properly. And this goes for some of their cameras too. Canon as well has their fair share, they are just different from Pentax.

Regarding point 7 in your line-up, the printed commercial for the D90 had a guy hiding under an outdoor table from the rain, stating that it was bad weather but a good day for photography. Some of the most stunning work I’ve seen from Jim Brandenburg, are his rainy wildlife shoots from Montana. Changing weather brings the most fascinating light.

I expect the D7000 to be sealed like the D200, Eos 40D or maybe even the Eos 5D Mark II level. So sealing at the most vulnerable places to avoid dust and moisture, but not weather proofing to the extent of K7 or E3, which can handle heavy rain for longer durations.


Ergonomics are important, some will pick the D7000, others will prefer the K5. Many internet stores, let you buy a camera, and return it, if it wasn’t to your liking. If you want to try and hold a Pentax, it is really not particularly difficult.
I think it is such a joke that every time a new camera comes out, people get afraid of their own shadow. The K200 did well, though were speculated to be do poorly. The colors of the K-x were laughed at, but turned out to be great marketing and it did good in sales. K7 were on pretty much all accounts a big step up from the K20. More and more people are upgrading from P&S. Aiming for third place in DSLR market, is a very profitable position.
Every time a new cam comes out from Nikon or Canon, some people get afraid that now it is the turning point for Olympus, Pentax, Sony. If one gets so afraid, then maybe it will be better to switch. It is not a life or death situation, we’re talking about cameras
The D7000 is a good response to what Pentax has at the table. Compact prime selection is still not there. Nor do I think it will contain all the more advanced functions of the D300 / K5. Such a high MP sensor will require good glass, and that is very expensive in Nikon land.


I think the D7000 shows that Nikon also take the digital SLR format seriously. This is where the volume and cash flow is.
The D7000 and the K5 might come out somewhat the same. Some will choose to buy the Nikon, others the Pentax. It is the way it has always been. The D7000 will for sure eat away at the sale of D300s, we’ll see how happy the Nikon bosses will be in the end. Either way, it is good for us consumers to have the competition.
Nikon will be undercutting themselves, to try and hurt Canon. There will always be people, who want to try a different approach, than the mindless brand recognition that sales people try to stuff down your throat. People like choice and sometimes taking a different route. Olympus has been tried declared dead the last 10 years in DSLR segment, and people try to do the same with Pentax. Some things never change, I guess :ugh:

If people have had a Kx and liked it, why should they suddenly change brand, just because Nikon can suddenly match the K5 ?
And you expect 95 % to change brand, I think you need to take a deep breath and have a sip of water. With my fast fifty, I can shoot at ¼ of a second. Nikon still do not have any VR primes in the normal segment. With such a high MP sensor, IQ tops out at 3200-6400.




The Nikon compatibility doesn’t go as far back as Pentax. Older lenses might need to be modified.

It could be that the D7000 functions perfectly with AI-S lenses, but has stop down metering with AI or AI'd.
We’ll know more, when the full reviews come up.

Anyway little is new. The D200 and other cams had great backwards compatibility. It is just the first time that Nikon has put a pentaprim viewfinder in a mid-segment DSLR, and then not crippled the compatibility. I doubt it will change much. For the D300 users who will buy it, they already have and know about manual lenses. For newbies, manual lenses are for most, not within their scope of preference.
Prices for AI-S lenses are not like the vast pool of lenses that Pentax cams can draw from; using takumars, vivitar or unknow third party. You want faster primes for Nikon, you bring out your 100 dollar bills. You don’t go to a flea market and pick up lens for a twenty and expect compatibility, like people have been writing about and having fun with in Pentax land.

I welcome the option for D7000 users. It is great fun to play with old manual focus lenses. But I expect it not to be for the core of D7000 buyers. It will be reserved for the D200 advanced crowd. Sad but true. Most never go beyond their kit lens.
You have also some valid points, no doubt. In the meantime I have sold everything but K7/FA 31mm and waiting for the pre-ordered D7000 to come.
I was only stating that the things that made Pentax different (considering the price tier) are suddenly not so exclusive anymore. I really don't give a dead rat for full metall titanium bla bla body because really, the LCD, mount and lens are the most shock-sensitive not the body. So my post (and a lot others') is intended as a wake-up call for Pentax marketing to decide and act in a consistent way. Their resources are just too thin ATM to cover entry level/semipro/pro-level efficiently.
09-18-2010, 09:38 AM - 1 Like   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by kytra Quote
You have also some valid points, no doubt. In the meantime I have sold everything but K7/FA 31mm and waiting for the pre-ordered D7000 to come.
I was only stating that the things that made Pentax different (considering the price tier) are suddenly not so exclusive anymore. I really don't give a dead rat for full metall titanium bla bla body because really, the LCD, mount and lens are the most shock-sensitive not the body. So my post (and a lot others') is intended as a wake-up call for Pentax marketing to decide and act in a consistent way. Their resources are just too thin ATM to cover entry level/semipro/pro-level efficiently.
Have fun with your new cam. If ones don’t test things out, one will never know what fits the best. Having fun, this is what hobbies are all about
Cheers
09-18-2010, 10:06 AM   #208
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonson PL Quote
Have fun with your new cam. If ones don’t test things out, one will never know what fits the best. Having fun, this is what hobbies are all about
Cheers
Exactly! That's why Pentax should survive not go under like Minolta, Contax, Yashica...

If one of the biggies would buy everything, where's the fun. I actually think that Nikon is not at all after Pentax market share, they are just innocent bystanders getting a stray bullet from the anti 60D/7D shotgun )
09-18-2010, 05:10 PM   #209
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNKtFkX29IE[/YT]
That wasn't about the D7000 at all.
09-18-2010, 05:17 PM   #210
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
That wasn't about the D7000 at all.
[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMbBKukJzBk[/YT]
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