[kytra]

nice feature - especially when one screws up the WB

[Tord]

Ordered mine earlier this week - let's hope it will get here before my birthday!

[Rite]

B&H opening pricing (steep):

K-5 Digital SLR Camera Body (Black) - $1,599


K-5 Digital SLR Camera18-55mm Zoom Lens (Black) - $1,749

[m8o]

Which is why I won't pre-order. Prices always adjust to competative levels once it ships.

[falconeye]

B&H opening pricing (steep):

K-5 Digital SLR Camera Body (Black) - $1,599

The preorder price in French store Spécialiste photo, vente appareil photo numérique argentique accessoires réflex is $1,409.-USD (converted, VAT deducted). That's less than $100 close to their preorder price for the D7000 btw.

It is almost always that US prices are a tad below EU prices. So, don't order until the preorder price has dropped at $1,399.-USD or below, i.e., wait a couple more days ...

[pentaxmz]

I REALLY hope that report is correct and the Pentax chat rep was wrong when he stated the situation had not changed.

My take on it:
90%+ of the benefit of DFS can be obtained using a single dark frame sample of a given shutter speed in particular conditions (namely temperature). There is little extra benefit to doing it for EVERY shot that meets certain conditions.

Also, it is frustrating that the threshold which it goes from "off" to "on" is arbitrary. If I'm happy with image quality of a 25 second bulb exposure, am I really going to be completely unhappy with the IQ of a 35 second exposure? It is MASSIVELY frustrating to have to use a stopwatch for every bulb shot during a fireworks show to avoid ever accidentally crossing that 30 second threshold.

Also, I attempted to do some nighttime HDR panorama work - I basically gave up. If you are taking 6-10 brackets to stitch together, it is massively frustrating when almost your entire exposure time is doubled. (When in autobracket mode, the forced auto-DFS kicks in with exposure times of only a few seconds.) I am losing huge amounts of time and gaining almost nothing image quality wise compared to if I took one dark frame bracket set prior to starting my pano.

If forced auto-DFS is gone and the K-5 can replace BOTH my K20D and K10D (I keep the 10 around for fireworks as the 20 is wholly unsuitable for fireworks), I'll be buying it. If forced auto-DFS is not gone, I'm likely to start considering switching systems rather than upgrading bodies. This is such a ridiculously easy "feature" to remove from the camera, but so far, it stays around.

Exactly!

I do not understand why Pentax is the *ONLY* camera manufacturer that simply doesn't understand the limiting nature of forced DFS. It reeks of incompetence, IMHO.

Speaking of HDR, here is an example: http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/24567375.jpg

This photo took me nearly two hours to complete because of forced DFS. Believe me, every time I had to wait for the DFS to complete, I was cursing under my breath. In fact, a camera enthusiast stopped to speak with me and I spoke candidly about how the Pentax K20D is not suitable for night time photography.

Another issue is poor IQ on long exposures. Notice the noise in this photo; believe it or not, I shot this photo at ISO200! For those whom claim that long exposure IQ on the K20D is excellent, I say NONSENSE!

The following year, I shot a similar photo with my Canon 50D and not only was I able to take the photo in around the same number of minutes as the exposures but the IQ is vastly superior and that was with no DFS.

The only reason why I haven't dumped Pentax yet is because of my substantial investment in glass. I had decided to give Pentax another chance after the failure of the K7, and now it appears that it is business as usual with the K5.

And for those out there that don't care about DFS and think that I (and others) should just stop complaining and leave for Canikon... that is a terrible attitude! Pentax, especially now, needs all of us. I truly want Pentax to reclaim some of its past glory but I've grown tired of defending a company that no longer seems to care about their customers.

When was the last time we saw a response from a Pentax rep in this forum?

[pentaxmz]

Well... I'm mad at them for DFS on the K-7 because they claimed NR could be turned off. But in B above 30s it can't. So I don't think they actually even understood what the market wanted. That said when I contacted them about it directly over the phone they were terribly apologetic and didn't try and say it was for your own good. Rather they said it was a sensor limitation. It's some of the fanboys that have said this "for your own good" line to me. I do think there's a terrible gap in communications though, take for example the way the tech specs for the K-5 have been released. Sloppy work.

What is beginning to annoy me almost as much is the rather arrogant attitude of some members of this forum, whom clearly do not care about forced DFS and, feel that those complaining about it should just either accept it or find another camera; I hear statements like "no camera is perfect". or some other such nonsense. It is NONSENSE b/c, in the past, I have owned 'perfect' cameras... mostly film based Nikons with Nikor glass, but also a Pentax MZ-S. Aside from relatively poor IQ and forced DFS, the K20D could have been near perfect.

What these people fail to understand about forced DFS is:
#1. All that is required is a SIMPLE firmware modification to make us happy
#2. This is not a minor annoyance!
Forced DFS actually makes the camera near completely
useless for long exposures.
#3. Pentax has a bad reputation amongst long exposure enthusiasts.
Canon is loved b/c they care about this relatively small group.

Speaking of marketing, it is not expensive to actually care or show consideration about every group of enthusiasts. Canon especially goes out of there way to show they care about the opinions of their customers. I have yet to see evidence of this type of care from Pentax.

I may very well sell all my Pentax related gear but I (and others who abandon Pentax) will be missed b/c we will each be one less evangelist for the Pentax line.
Pentax is already in a very distant 3rd or 4th place so Pentax cannot afford losing more sales over such a simple fix!

On the other hand, perhaps Pentax cannot disable forced DFS because it will reveal just how poorly designed the sensor is and/or perhaps it will also demonstrate the major caveat to in-camera shake reduction?

[Rite]

On the other hand, perhaps Pentax cannot disable forced DFS because it will reveal just how poorly designed the sensor is and/or perhaps it will also demonstrate the major caveat to in-camera shake reduction?

Read more at: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/114977-pentax-k-5-offi...#ixzz10bVRL8NC

===================================

A word on that sensor ..

Pentax DSLR Body

Although still branded as a “prosumer” DSLR by Pentax, the K-5K-5 is still an has features normally found only on the most costly of professional cameras. Yes, many will be disappointed because the APS-C DSLR, but this new sensor produces better images than any film 35mm camera ever produced and this Full-Frame mania is absurd (In my opinion, of course).

It was adopted only because the 35mm film camera images on the negatives are 24 x 36 mm in size (Image circle). Most DSLRs were built so that the vestige of 35mm film camera lenses could easily be used with a DSLR design parallel to the 35mm film cameras. If you want a large sensor for ultimate bokeh or image quality, get a Pentax 645D. Today’s APS-C sized sensors are so improved and efficient compared to early sensors, that it makes sense to use them and build cameras that are small enough to carry all day without fatigue.

[Ash]

It seems most of these posts should be reserved for here:
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/115060-official-pe...ng-thread.html

In the meantime, will 10Mp do for long night exposures?
Then a K10D is the answer.

[kytra]

When was the last time we saw a response from a Pentax rep in this forum?

Sad but true! They just don't care or they don't know English

[ManuH]

this Full-Frame mania is absurd(In my opinion, of course).

It's not absurd for the same reasons that have been discussed over and over:
- bigger VF (although that advantage may disappear with the rise of EVF)
- better noise control by about 1.3 stops (but it may get to the point where this small advantage may not matter anymore)
- better DOF control, that one is pure physics you cannot overcome it.

And last but not least, one can always crop an FF image to get the APS-C equivalent, the reverse is of course impossible.

The real obstacle for FF is price. For now.

[Mohawk]

It's not absurd for the same reasons that have been discussed over and over:
- bigger VF (although that advantage may disappear with the rise of EVF)
- better noise control by about 1.3 stops (but it may get to the point where this small advantage may not matter anymore)
- better DOF control, that one is pure physics you cannot overcome it.

And last but not least, one can always crop an FF image to get the APS-C equivalent, the reverse is of course impossible.

The real obstacle for FF is price. For now.

FF price is not an obstacle for me. If I really wanted one I would have bought it already. But I take a perverse joy in taking much better images than FF-wielding photogs. This happened yet again my company function just last week!

The real obstacle for me is the price of 645D. I am looking forward to seeing MF technology really taking off and the widespread adoption by professionals.

[ManuH]

FF price is not an obstacle for me. If I really wanted one I would have bought it already. But I take a perverse joy in taking much better images than FF-wielding photogs. This happened yet again my company function just last week!

The real obstacle for me is the price of 645D. I am looking forward to the next leap, and am seeing MF technology and adoption by professionals really taking off and sh%tting all over FF.

The real danger is that the 645D may be obsolete in less than 2 years when FF sensors will reach 40MP (which they will do easily). Because, let's be real, that's about the only real advantage the 645D has, the high MP count.

[Mohawk]

The real danger is that the 645D may be obsolete in less than 2 years when FF sensors will reach 40MP (which they will do easily). Because, let's be real, that's about the only real advantage the 645D has, the high MP count.

So, by this argument the only real advantage that FF has over APS-C is the higher mp?

What ever happened to your previous chestnuts?:
- bigger VF (although that advantage may disappear with the rise of EVF)
- better noise control by about 1.3 stops (but it may get to the point where this small advantage may not matter anymore)
- better DOF control, that one is pure physics you cannot overcome it.

[digitalCG]

In the meantime, will 10Mp do for long night exposures?
Then a K10D is the answer.

Ash, it's the sole reason I still have my K10... doesn't mean I want to carry it everywhere as a hefty extra to the k-x

A flagship body three generations newer should be able to do it both cleaner and with more resolution... or at the very least give the photographer the control/choice.