Pentax at Photokina coverage by Falk Lumo!

JoepLX3 · 09-22-2010, 04:41 AM

Originally posted by gazonk

It's strange if they drop the K-x that quickly, after all the K-m is still present as a low price alternative in some markets.

Yeah, in some why phasing out K-7 would make more sense to me as well
- But on the other hand you don't want to confuse entry level customer too much and maintaining two camera's in so many colors sounds like a logistic hell... (I would not have mind the K-r to be as small as K-x with 2.7" high resolution LCD, but it would still be behind the competition, so in that way I think this is indeed best move for Pentax.

gazonk · 09-22-2010, 04:44 AM

Dpreview now have pictures from the stand, which they describe as "small but interesting". They completely ignore the 645D, though!

gazonk · 09-22-2010, 04:49 AM

Originally posted by JoepLX3

Yeah, in some why phasing out K-7 would make more sense to me as well
- But on the other hand you don't want to confuse entry level customer too much and maintaining two camera's in so many colors sounds like a logistic hell... (I would not have mind the K-r to be as small as K-x with 2.7" high resolution LCD, but it would still be behind the competition, so in that way I think this is indeed best move for Pentax.

Maybe they've also streamlined production costs, so it makes more sense to cut K-r price than to keep two models? But it's still kind of strange given that the K-r seems to be viewed as "mid range" by the press. Who knows, maybe pentax has "evil plans" for the beginner segment?

falconeye · 09-22-2010, 04:54 AM

Originally posted by Class A

I don't quite understand your response.

What I said applied to captures where the amount of light is kept a constant. Some people overestimate the effect of a long exposure time when, e.g., saying you cannot emulate low light with a short exposure time.

There aren't differences below 1/180s because the shutter operates this long and therefore, the sensor readout can't be quicker.
All that was in reply to a post that my ISO 6400 sample may not be significant because of its 1/800s shutter time. This may be true compared to 1/4s exposure time or so, but still is rather representative for hand-held photography. A larger effect is tungsten light which often accompanies high iso. My sample was at 2900K.

AngryCorgi · 09-22-2010, 05:01 AM

Originally posted by blende8

Note that Adobe is not supporting the K-5 as of present.
This can result in all kinds of strange things.

Ther will probably be also a new version of the Pentax software.

The DNG standard is under Adobe's control - they own it.

AngryCorgi · 09-22-2010, 05:02 AM

I don't suppose you have an identical shot showing off the camera's JPEG engine for comparison...

JoepLX3 · 09-22-2010, 05:03 AM

Originally posted by gazonk

Maybe they've also streamlined production costs, so it makes more sense to cut K-r price than to keep two models? But it's still kind of strange given that the K-r seems to be viewed as "mid range" by the press. Who knows, maybe pentax has "evil plans" for the beginner segment?

Maybe Pentax can sell mid-range camera at entry-level price (Pentax video explicitely mentioned entry level and the lady of course liked all the color combinations and the auto mode) --> that is a good deal for customers, especially for the ones wanting something more.

Class A · 09-22-2010, 05:09 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

What I said applied to captures where the amount of light is kept a constant.

But clearly the amount of light is not constant in the 1/800 vs 1/50 shutter speed scenarios?

Originally posted by falconeye

Some people overestimate the effect of a long exposure time when, e.g., saying you cannot emulate low light with a short exposure time.

I think what edl wanted to express was "No wonder your image is relatively noise free as there was plenty of light available". However, I don't accept his argument as reducing the shutter speed reduces the amount of light the sensor receives. As far as the total amount of light hitting the sensor is concerned, there is no difference between lot's of light and high shutter speed or low light and correspondingly slower shutter speed. Hence, I don't accept the "plenty of light" argument from edl.

Originally posted by falconeye

There aren't differences below 1/180s because the shutter operates this long and therefore, the sensor readout can't be quicker.

What has the sensor readout time got to do with noise?
EDIT: Are you referring to the fact that extensive exposure times cause thermal noise to build up? I think we can ignore that for the scenarios discussed here.

The crucial bit is how much light a pixel receives and that varies with shutter speed even below 1/180.

Sorry, if I'm missing something. It's late over here...

philippe · 09-22-2010, 05:25 AM

A few little questions for Falk while you are over there, if you do no't mind :
- How large is one RAW file, Mb wise?
- Can the K-5 shoot seqwenses whit out lowering the mirror in between, like the mirror up and then a series of several exposures (interesting for handheld exposure blending)?
- Does the K-5 can be tethered with the EYE-FI cards to a computer, or by other means (remote assistant)?

tmtke · 09-22-2010, 05:42 AM

I don't know that anyone noticed this yet, but the dng file which was uploaded here by falconeye contains a GPS location info of (50.945775, 6.980481). Nice

falconeye · 09-22-2010, 05:42 AM

Originally posted by Class A

But clearly the amount of light is not constant in the 1/800 vs 1/50 shutter speed scenarios?

I think you didn't understand what edl was trying to say. And I agree, he didn't say what he meant. So, sorry that I did the necessary translation before answering.

The translation was this: Of course, 1/50s shutter speed isn't the same light, but it showed that the light flux wasn't low.

Light flux does have an impact because it allows for a shorter exposure time. And a shorter exposure time minimizes the effect of noise caused by the dark current. However, as I explained, not below 1/180s and as I explained, not for moderate exposure times with modern sensors which haven't a large dark current anymore. Dark current increases when the sensor gets hot though. Which is why it does matter for very long exposures or in movie mode.

Again, all this was just to say: Never mind, that's a normal ISO 6400 shot.

Originally posted by philippe

A few little questions for Falk while you are over there, if you do no't mind :
- How large is one RAW file, Mb wise?
- Can the K-5 shoot seqwenses whit out lowering the mirror in between, like the mirror up and then a series of several exposures (interesting for handheld exposure blending)?
- Does the K-5 can be tethered with the EYE-FI cards to a computer, or by other means (remote assistant)?

First qustion was answered before. The other two questions are easily answered because there is no diference to a K-7: Yes and yes. Eyefi works and switching to LV makes the camera burst or bracket w/o mirror operation (called quiet shutter with the D7000). Remote assistant doesn't support the K-7 or K-5 but it seems like Pentax said they're working on it.

Christopher M.W.T · 09-22-2010, 05:50 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

You may not have been aware. But next day I'll be at Photokina is Friday. Right now, I'm meeting some people in Düsseldorf (in my real job).

So, what I post meanwhile are the bits and pieces I receive via mail.

Hahha, no worries

Thanks for all your hard work to!

wll · 09-22-2010, 06:13 AM

"Mehlsack: I talked to a staff member who confirmed that thethering will be delivered later by firmware (final or later)"

Originally posted by Class A

Can Mehlsack please detain said staff member and not release him/her until that announcement has become a reality?

Sounds too good to be true!

One thinks Pentax would have announced it for a firmware upgrade as they did for SDXC card support.

Tethering is a VERY important tool and used all the time in studio work.

This is one of the biggest news items of the show for Pentax as far as I'm concerned ! This is the feature that puts the K-5 more in line with the pro class, and one of the main features I have been waiting for :- )

If this is true, Pentax's marketing department needs to be let go, they need to advertise what the new features are known in firmware upgrades.

Come on Pentax, make it happen !!!!!

wll

JoepLX3 · 09-22-2010, 06:14 AM

I first thought tethering was a multiple player game via IrSimple on K-r (like tetris)...
- Monitoring / controlling camera via computer sounds like fun!!!

blende8 · 09-22-2010, 06:21 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

This is why I shot DNG. DNG should have an embedded camera profile.

Originally posted by AngryCorgi

The DNG standard is under Adobe's control - they own it.

It is well known and has been discussed before that ACR has problems with DNGs of not yet supported cameras.
So, I would wait until either the new Pentax software or the update of ACR is out for final judgement.

09-22-2010, 05:42 AM	#220
tmtke New Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Budapest Posts: 11	GPS info I don't know that anyone noticed this yet, but the dng file which was uploaded here by falconeye contains a GPS location info of (50.945775, 6.980481). Nice

09-22-2010, 06:13 AM	#223
wll Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Mission Hills, CA Posts: 773	This Should Be a MAJOR Announcement !!!!!! "Mehlsack: I talked to a staff member who confirmed that thethering will be delivered later by firmware (final or later)" Originally posted by Class A Can Mehlsack please detain said staff member and not release him/her until that announcement has become a reality? Sounds too good to be true! One thinks Pentax would have announced it for a firmware upgrade as they did for SDXC card support. Tethering is a VERY important tool and used all the time in studio work. This is one of the biggest news items of the show for Pentax as far as I'm concerned ! This is the feature that puts the K-5 more in line with the pro class, and one of the main features I have been waiting for :- ) If this is true, Pentax's marketing department needs to be let go, they need to advertise what the new features are known in firmware upgrades. Come on Pentax, make it happen !!!!! wll

09-22-2010, 06:14 AM	#224
JoepLX3 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 518	I first thought tethering was a multiple player game via IrSimple on K-r (like tetris)... - Monitoring / controlling camera via computer sounds like fun!!! Last edited by JoepLX3; 09-22-2010 at 06:15 AM. Reason: spelling of most important word...

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09-22-2010, 04:41 AM	#211
JoepLX3 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 518	Originally posted by gazonk It's strange if they drop the K-x that quickly, after all the K-m is still present as a low price alternative in some markets. Yeah, in some why phasing out K-7 would make more sense to me as well - But on the other hand you don't want to confuse entry level customer too much and maintaining two camera's in so many colors sounds like a logistic hell... (I would not have mind the K-r to be as small as K-x with 2.7" high resolution LCD, but it would still be behind the competition, so in that way I think this is indeed best move for Pentax.

09-22-2010, 04:44 AM	#212
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Dpreview now have pictures from the stand, which they describe as "small but interesting". They completely ignore the 645D, though!

09-22-2010, 04:49 AM	#213
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by JoepLX3 Yeah, in some why phasing out K-7 would make more sense to me as well - But on the other hand you don't want to confuse entry level customer too much and maintaining two camera's in so many colors sounds like a logistic hell... (I would not have mind the K-r to be as small as K-x with 2.7" high resolution LCD, but it would still be behind the competition, so in that way I think this is indeed best move for Pentax. Maybe they've also streamlined production costs, so it makes more sense to cut K-r price than to keep two models? But it's still kind of strange given that the K-r seems to be viewed as "mid range" by the press. Who knows, maybe pentax has "evil plans" for the beginner segment?

09-22-2010, 04:54 AM	#214
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871 Original Poster	Originally posted by Class A I don't quite understand your response. What I said applied to captures where the amount of light is kept a constant. Some people overestimate the effect of a long exposure time when, e.g., saying you cannot emulate low light with a short exposure time. There aren't differences below 1/180s because the shutter operates this long and therefore, the sensor readout can't be quicker. All that was in reply to a post that my ISO 6400 sample may not be significant because of its 1/800s shutter time. This may be true compared to 1/4s exposure time or so, but still is rather representative for hand-held photography. A larger effect is tungsten light which often accompanies high iso. My sample was at 2900K.

09-22-2010, 05:01 AM	#215
AngryCorgi Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Northern VA Posts: 73	Originally posted by blende8 Note that Adobe is not supporting the K-5 as of present. This can result in all kinds of strange things. Ther will probably be also a new version of the Pentax software. The DNG standard is under Adobe's control - they own it.

09-22-2010, 05:02 AM	#216
AngryCorgi Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Northern VA Posts: 73	I don't suppose you have an identical shot showing off the camera's JPEG engine for comparison...

09-22-2010, 05:03 AM	#217
JoepLX3 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 518	Originally posted by gazonk Maybe they've also streamlined production costs, so it makes more sense to cut K-r price than to keep two models? But it's still kind of strange given that the K-r seems to be viewed as "mid range" by the press. Who knows, maybe pentax has "evil plans" for the beginner segment? Maybe Pentax can sell mid-range camera at entry-level price (Pentax video explicitely mentioned entry level and the lady of course liked all the color combinations and the auto mode) --> that is a good deal for customers, especially for the ones wanting something more.

09-22-2010, 05:09 AM	#218
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by falconeye What I said applied to captures where the amount of light is kept a constant. But clearly the amount of light is not constant in the 1/800 vs 1/50 shutter speed scenarios? Originally posted by falconeye Some people overestimate the effect of a long exposure time when, e.g., saying you cannot emulate low light with a short exposure time. I think what edl wanted to express was "No wonder your image is relatively noise free as there was plenty of light available". However, I don't accept his argument as reducing the shutter speed reduces the amount of light the sensor receives. As far as the total amount of light hitting the sensor is concerned, there is no difference between lot's of light and high shutter speed or low light and correspondingly slower shutter speed. Hence, I don't accept the "plenty of light" argument from edl. Originally posted by falconeye There aren't differences below 1/180s because the shutter operates this long and therefore, the sensor readout can't be quicker. What has the sensor readout time got to do with noise? EDIT: Are you referring to the fact that extensive exposure times cause thermal noise to build up? I think we can ignore that for the scenarios discussed here. The crucial bit is how much light a pixel receives and that varies with shutter speed even below 1/180. Sorry, if I'm missing something. It's late over here...

09-22-2010, 05:25 AM	#219
philippe Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Flanders Fields Posts: 463	A few little questions for Falk while you are over there, if you do no't mind : - How large is one RAW file, Mb wise? - Can the K-5 shoot seqwenses whit out lowering the mirror in between, like the mirror up and then a series of several exposures (interesting for handheld exposure blending)? - Does the K-5 can be tethered with the EYE-FI cards to a computer, or by other means (remote assistant)?

09-22-2010, 05:42 AM	#221
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871 Original Poster	Originally posted by Class A But clearly the amount of light is not constant in the 1/800 vs 1/50 shutter speed scenarios? I think you didn't understand what edl was trying to say. And I agree, he didn't say what he meant. So, sorry that I did the necessary translation before answering. The translation was this: Of course, 1/50s shutter speed isn't the same light, but it showed that the light flux wasn't low. Light flux does have an impact because it allows for a shorter exposure time. And a shorter exposure time minimizes the effect of noise caused by the dark current. However, as I explained, not below 1/180s and as I explained, not for moderate exposure times with modern sensors which haven't a large dark current anymore. Dark current increases when the sensor gets hot though. Which is why it does matter for very long exposures or in movie mode. Again, all this was just to say: Never mind, that's a normal ISO 6400 shot. Originally posted by philippe A few little questions for Falk while you are over there, if you do no't mind : - How large is one RAW file, Mb wise? - Can the K-5 shoot seqwenses whit out lowering the mirror in between, like the mirror up and then a series of several exposures (interesting for handheld exposure blending)? - Does the K-5 can be tethered with the EYE-FI cards to a computer, or by other means (remote assistant)? First qustion was answered before. The other two questions are easily answered because there is no diference to a K-7: Yes and yes. Eyefi works and switching to LV makes the camera burst or bracket w/o mirror operation (called quiet shutter with the D7000). Remote assistant doesn't support the K-7 or K-5 but it seems like Pentax said they're working on it.

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09-22-2010, 05:50 AM	#222
Christopher M.W.T Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,689	Originally posted by falconeye You may not have been aware. But next day I'll be at Photokina is Friday. Right now, I'm meeting some people in Düsseldorf (in my real job). So, what I post meanwhile are the bits and pieces I receive via mail. Hahha, no worries Thanks for all your hard work to!

09-22-2010, 06:21 AM	#225
blende8 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Bremen, Germany Photos: Albums Posts: 1,521	Originally posted by falconeye This is why I shot DNG. DNG should have an embedded camera profile. Originally posted by AngryCorgi The DNG standard is under Adobe's control - they own it. It is well known and has been discussed before that ACR has problems with DNGs of not yet supported cameras. So, I would wait until either the new Pentax software or the update of ACR is out for final judgement.