Pentax at Photokina coverage by Falk Lumo!

Class A · 09-23-2010, 06:31 AM

Originally posted by blende8

I didn't apply anything to the DCU Version.

I didn't mean to imply that. However, it is quite possible that DCU4 automatically applies some NR at this ISO level (pure speculation).

Originally posted by blende8

But well, we should really be waiting for the final software.

I'd be surprised if the LR3 results changed after the K-5 is supported, but it isn't impossible. ACR/LR are known to do some work behind the scenes for various camera models so results may change for the K-5 too (even though it seems it won't need any special help).

falconeye · 09-23-2010, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by Class A

I didn't mean to imply that. However, it is quite possible that DCU4 automatically applies some NR at this ISO level (pure speculation).

AFAIK, DCU applies the camera setting as default. I've no idea what settings have been with this image. EXIF says: "Noise reduction: off; High ISO noise reduction: 255".

EXIF says AF measurement time 8ms too. And it says "AF Defocus: 2".

dmgabe · 09-23-2010, 08:23 AM

You can see high iso images from the new Nikon D7000 here for comparison. Looks like Nikon might have manages to stay on top in the high iso arena for the time being. Simply amazing for an aps-c camera.

tmtke · 09-23-2010, 08:28 AM

Falk: did you noticed the GPS data in the EXIF?

JohnBee · 09-23-2010, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by JohnBee

My humble attempt with ACR6 and Denoise 5

I ran through the file again(loosened some of the settings) to let more original grain through. One issue I've found with this particular sample is where the texture of the branches seem flocked(velvet like) which ends-up very easy to mush. Luckily a quick red channel NR adjustment helped keep that that channel under control.

Granted, I think the NR profile could be tweaked a little further especially in the shadow regions. However, for an ISO6400 sample, I'd say we are well on our way with this early sample, and the most notable(of course), is how well this file responds to NR. Might I remind you that this is an ISO6400 image?!? Which seems right up there in handling with a D700 atm.

falconeye · 09-23-2010, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by tmtke

Falk: did you noticed the GPS data in the EXIF?

If you mean my DNG, read the thread: it's my workflow which puts GPS data into RAWs.

JohnBee · 09-23-2010, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

If you mean my DNG, read the thread: it's my workflow which puts GPS data into RAWs.

Hello falconeye!
Any chance you could get us some higher ISO RAW samples to look at?
I'm dying to see how the K-5 files look against a D700

Also.. do you know if the K-5 has an expanded DR function? And if so... was it enabled when you took this shot? I'm just trying to assess if there are any other in camera settings that might influence image grain since the K-5 DNG/RAW you posted seems to of been processed somehow(multi-oriented patterns).

John

falconeye · 09-23-2010, 08:53 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by dmgabe

You can see high iso images from the new Nikon D7000 here for comparison. Looks like Nikon might have manages to stay on top in the high iso arena for the time being. Simply amazing for an aps-c camera.

I had no luck developping the RAWs from the new Nikon. My LR doesn't read them. Anybody?

The samples on the website have been processed by the in-camera NR. Nikon is famous for its excellent in-camera NR algorithm. So, Nikon would typically win an in-body JPG comparison.

Originally posted by JohnBee

the texture of the branches seem flocked(velvet like) which ends-up very easy to mush.

I even inspected the red tree for fine texture before taking the shot

Noise reduction is easy w/o fine detail...

ogl · 09-23-2010, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

If you mean my DNG, read the thread: it's my workflow which puts GPS data into RAWs.

Dear Falk...

I don't understand simple things -
why can't anybody from Pentax explain the plans about future cameras and lenses...

Sony and Sigma say about new FF cameras...(FF FOVEON is real revolution IMO).

Fuji offers outstanding X100.
Olympus, Panasonic and Samsung are in hard activity with EVIL.

Nikon and Canon are the leaders of DSLR markets with strong lines of lenses and cameras...

But, WHAT ABOUT PENTAX?

No any press-conference, no any plans, no TC, no new flashes, no EVIL, no any new lenses (just DA18-135) - no new LIMITEDS and DA*, no any roadmaps.

Stuck to APS-C. But, what then? What is Pentax's prospect?

But NO ANSWER....Silence.

It's strange behaviour...

The stand of Pentax at Photokina is rather modest..IMO....

m8o · 09-23-2010, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by JohnBee

... Granted, I think the NR profile could be tweaked a little further especially in the shadow regions. However, for an ISO6400 sample, I'd say we are well on our way with this early sample, and the most notable(of course), is how well this file responds to NR. Might I remind you that this is an ISO6400 image?!? Which seems right up there in handling with a D700 atm.

Thanks for doing the leg-work and beating me to what I wanted to do myself. I gave rep a few days ago so have to wait to give you some more.

All is left to be seen at this point for me is if in-camera NR will have similar NR performance in the final firmware. I do know about the configurable ISO-specific NR settings, and think that's fantastic to have. But if when the camera ships in-camera NR can produce similar NR reduction while maintaining the detail, I may start using JPEGs again, and maybe even turn RAW off.

infoomatic · 09-23-2010, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by infoomatic

i am curious on the DC motor of the new lens. Falk, were you able to compare the speed of an existing SDM lens with the new DC lens? whats your feeling?

Falk, did you do a small test?

tmtke · 09-23-2010, 09:01 AM

My two samples:

Your DNG:
here

The Nikon NEF:
here

I've applied only chroma denoise, developed with RawTherapee - amaze demosaicing, no sharpening.

The only difference between the two sample's developement is that the nikon file has a +1EV exposure correction, while the pentax file has only 0.26EV.

dmgabe · 09-23-2010, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by JohnBee

Hello falconeye!
Any chance you could get us some higher ISO RAW samples to look at?
I'm dying to see how the K-5 files look against a D700

Also.. do you know if the K-5 has an expanded DR function? And if so... was it enabled when you took this shot? I'm just trying to assess if there are any other in camera settings that might influence image grain since the K-5 DNG/RAW you posted seems to of been processed somehow(multi-oriented patterns).

John

Any of those types of functions (expanded DR etc.) will not effect a raw image, just jpeg output. That is the nature of a raw file, no processing done by the camera, just the raw data from the sensor to be processed in post.

JohnBee · 09-23-2010, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by m8o

I gave rep a few days ago so have to wait to give you some more.

Yay!
Thanks.
I don't even know what REP points do, but its still fun to get them

dmgabe · 09-23-2010, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by m8o

Thanks for doing the leg-work and beating me to what I wanted to do myself. I gave rep a few days ago so have to wait to give you some more.

All is left to be seen at this point for me is if in-camera NR will have similar NR performance in the final firmware. I do know about the configurable ISO-specific NR settings, and think that's fantastic to have. But if when the camera ships in-camera NR can produce similar NR reduction while maintaining the detail, I may start using JPEGs again, and maybe even turn RAW off.

Unless you plan on doing no editing in post at all, it is never a good idea to abandon raw files. They offer so much more data when it comes to PP that allows you to do things that no jpeg can offer. Do yourself a favor and stick to raw, I could never discard all that valuable data, and lose all the processing headroom.

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09-23-2010, 06:31 AM	#331
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by blende8 I didn't apply anything to the DCU Version. I didn't mean to imply that. However, it is quite possible that DCU4 automatically applies some NR at this ISO level (pure speculation). Originally posted by blende8 But well, we should really be waiting for the final software. I'd be surprised if the LR3 results changed after the K-5 is supported, but it isn't impossible. ACR/LR are known to do some work behind the scenes for various camera models so results may change for the K-5 too (even though it seems it won't need any special help).

09-23-2010, 07:08 AM	#332
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871 Original Poster	Originally posted by Class A I didn't mean to imply that. However, it is quite possible that DCU4 automatically applies some NR at this ISO level (pure speculation). AFAIK, DCU applies the camera setting as default. I've no idea what settings have been with this image. EXIF says: "Noise reduction: off; High ISO noise reduction: 255". EXIF says AF measurement time 8ms too. And it says "AF Defocus: 2".

09-23-2010, 08:23 AM	#333
dmgabe New Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Carbondale, IL Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 19	You can see high iso images from the new Nikon D7000 here for comparison. Looks like Nikon might have manages to stay on top in the high iso arena for the time being. Simply amazing for an aps-c camera.

09-23-2010, 08:28 AM	#334
tmtke New Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Budapest Posts: 11	Falk: did you noticed the GPS data in the EXIF?

09-23-2010, 08:35 AM	#335
JohnBee Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Newrfoundland Photos: Albums Posts: 4,667	Originally posted by JohnBee My humble attempt with ACR6 and Denoise 5 I ran through the file again(loosened some of the settings) to let more original grain through. One issue I've found with this particular sample is where the texture of the branches seem flocked(velvet like) which ends-up very easy to mush. Luckily a quick red channel NR adjustment helped keep that that channel under control. Granted, I think the NR profile could be tweaked a little further especially in the shadow regions. However, for an ISO6400 sample, I'd say we are well on our way with this early sample, and the most notable(of course), is how well this file responds to NR. Might I remind you that this is an ISO6400 image?!? Which seems right up there in handling with a D700 atm.

09-23-2010, 08:36 AM	#336
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871 Original Poster	Originally posted by tmtke Falk: did you noticed the GPS data in the EXIF? If you mean my DNG, read the thread: it's my workflow which puts GPS data into RAWs.

09-23-2010, 08:52 AM	#337
JohnBee Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Newrfoundland Photos: Albums Posts: 4,667	Originally posted by falconeye If you mean my DNG, read the thread: it's my workflow which puts GPS data into RAWs. Hello falconeye! Any chance you could get us some higher ISO RAW samples to look at? I'm dying to see how the K-5 files look against a D700 Also.. do you know if the K-5 has an expanded DR function? And if so... was it enabled when you took this shot? I'm just trying to assess if there are any other in camera settings that might influence image grain since the K-5 DNG/RAW you posted seems to of been processed somehow(multi-oriented patterns). John

09-23-2010, 08:53 AM - 1 Like	#338
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871 Original Poster	Originally posted by dmgabe You can see high iso images from the new Nikon D7000 here for comparison. Looks like Nikon might have manages to stay on top in the high iso arena for the time being. Simply amazing for an aps-c camera. I had no luck developping the RAWs from the new Nikon. My LR doesn't read them. Anybody? The samples on the website have been processed by the in-camera NR. Nikon is famous for its excellent in-camera NR algorithm. So, Nikon would typically win an in-body JPG comparison. Originally posted by JohnBee the texture of the branches seem flocked(velvet like) which ends-up very easy to mush. I even inspected the red tree for fine texture before taking the shot Noise reduction is easy w/o fine detail...

09-23-2010, 08:54 AM	#339
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by falconeye If you mean my DNG, read the thread: it's my workflow which puts GPS data into RAWs. Dear Falk... I don't understand simple things - why can't anybody from Pentax explain the plans about future cameras and lenses... Sony and Sigma say about new FF cameras...(FF FOVEON is real revolution IMO). Fuji offers outstanding X100. Olympus, Panasonic and Samsung are in hard activity with EVIL. Nikon and Canon are the leaders of DSLR markets with strong lines of lenses and cameras... But, WHAT ABOUT PENTAX? No any press-conference, no any plans, no TC, no new flashes, no EVIL, no any new lenses (just DA18-135) - no new LIMITEDS and DA, no any roadmaps. Stuck to APS-C. But, what then? What is Pentax's prospect? But NO ANSWER....Silence. It's strange behaviour... The stand of Pentax at Photokina is rather modest..IMO....*

09-23-2010, 09:00 AM	#340
m8o Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: 40°-55'-44" N / 73°-24'-07" W [on LI] Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,092	Originally posted by JohnBee ... Granted, I think the NR profile could be tweaked a little further especially in the shadow regions. However, for an ISO6400 sample, I'd say we are well on our way with this early sample, and the most notable(of course), is how well this file responds to NR. Might I remind you that this is an ISO6400 image?!? Which seems right up there in handling with a D700 atm. Thanks for doing the leg-work and beating me to what I wanted to do myself. I gave rep a few days ago so have to wait to give you some more. All is left to be seen at this point for me is if in-camera NR will have similar NR performance in the final firmware. I do know about the configurable ISO-specific NR settings, and think that's fantastic to have. But if when the camera ships in-camera NR can produce similar NR reduction while maintaining the detail, I may start using JPEGs again, and maybe even turn RAW off.

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09-23-2010, 09:01 AM	#341
infoomatic Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Austria Photos: Gallery Posts: 255	Originally posted by infoomatic i am curious on the DC motor of the new lens. Falk, were you able to compare the speed of an existing SDM lens with the new DC lens? whats your feeling? Falk, did you do a small test?

09-23-2010, 09:01 AM	#342
tmtke New Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Budapest Posts: 11	My two samples: Your DNG: here The Nikon NEF: here I've applied only chroma denoise, developed with RawTherapee - amaze demosaicing, no sharpening. The only difference between the two sample's developement is that the nikon file has a +1EV exposure correction, while the pentax file has only 0.26EV.

09-23-2010, 09:06 AM	#343
dmgabe New Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Carbondale, IL Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 19	Originally posted by JohnBee Hello falconeye! Any chance you could get us some higher ISO RAW samples to look at? I'm dying to see how the K-5 files look against a D700 Also.. do you know if the K-5 has an expanded DR function? And if so... was it enabled when you took this shot? I'm just trying to assess if there are any other in camera settings that might influence image grain since the K-5 DNG/RAW you posted seems to of been processed somehow(multi-oriented patterns). John Any of those types of functions (expanded DR etc.) will not effect a raw image, just jpeg output. That is the nature of a raw file, no processing done by the camera, just the raw data from the sensor to be processed in post.

09-23-2010, 09:06 AM	#344
JohnBee Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Newrfoundland Photos: Albums Posts: 4,667	Originally posted by m8o I gave rep a few days ago so have to wait to give you some more. Yay! Thanks. I don't even know what REP points do, but its still fun to get them

09-23-2010, 09:11 AM	#345
dmgabe New Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Carbondale, IL Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 19	Originally posted by m8o Thanks for doing the leg-work and beating me to what I wanted to do myself. I gave rep a few days ago so have to wait to give you some more. All is left to be seen at this point for me is if in-camera NR will have similar NR performance in the final firmware. I do know about the configurable ISO-specific NR settings, and think that's fantastic to have. But if when the camera ships in-camera NR can produce similar NR reduction while maintaining the detail, I may start using JPEGs again, and maybe even turn RAW off. Unless you plan on doing no editing in post at all, it is never a good idea to abandon raw files. They offer so much more data when it comes to PP that allows you to do things that no jpeg can offer. Do yourself a favor and stick to raw, I could never discard all that valuable data, and lose all the processing headroom.